Galena IL Derailment - "Carrying Oil"

[SALfan]

Wizlish

 

 

NorthWest

The L-188s, after the engine mount issues were resolved, went on to be very reliable aircraft, they just got caught up in the introduction of jet aircraft a few years later.

 

 

Yes, once the Electras were fixed, they were fine aircraft ... didn't they serve as backup power on the NYC-Washington air shuttle into the 1980s, a bit like K4s on the Long Branch almost making it into the '60s? ... but they had to have the unanticipated problem fixed first.  Comets were reliable, too, after the stress raisers at the window corners were removed.  Let's not forget static wick location on Boeings, either. 

 

In probably 1980 or 1981 I flew on an Electra, from Tallahassee FL to Chattanooga TN.  At that time the Boise Interagency Fire Center had at least one to use shuttling forest fire-fighting crews around, and that's why I was on it.  The seats were nice and roomy (of course, I was a lot thinner then).

[Victrola1]

Was the Mendota sub utilized as a detour due to the Galena derailment?

How long until traffic routing and flow returns to "normal" with the Galena derailment location reopened to traffic? 

[power58]

Due to the deailment we had 3 consit tied down in Sandwich and Somonauk. IL. The one train was so long they had to cut it, and space it over 3 crossings. The  BNSF mainline dispatcher Had an Amtrak crew measure the crossings for the 250 foot crossing rule. 3 crossings were under the 250 foot rule some only 110 foot. A Form C was filled out to protect the crossings, we probably had 500 oil tanker cars tied down. This morning a crew pushed the tankers back to clear the crossings and the BNSF Mainline dispatch voied the Form C. The Mendota sub. was busy on Main 1 even with every thing tied down on Main2 . The tankers were 31120 Gallon 117 800 L. All Consist still tied down this morning.  

[Wizlish]

NorthWest

The L-188s, after the engine mount issues were resolved, went on to be very reliable aircraft, they just got caught up in the introduction of jet aircraft a few years later.

Yes, once the Electras were fixed, they were fine aircraft ... didn't they serve as backup power on the NYC-Washington air shuttle into the 1980s, a bit like K4s on the Long Branch almost making it into the '60s? ... but they had to have the unanticipated problem fixed first.  Comets were reliable, too, after the stress raisers at the window corners were removed.  Let's not forget static wick location on Boeings, either. 

In my opinion this is not very different from using shorter or better-located bolts on Pinto bumpers, or using double-universal halfshafts instead of swing axles on Corvairs... or, perhaps, four-wheel rather than two-wheel engine trucks on early NYC electrics.  Wasn't there an old song "Little Things Mean A Lot"?  Sometimes they mean critically 'a lot'.  All the rest of the design may be brilliant, but get into the range where the problem occurs, and there is a vastly magnified chance of catastrophe. 

What I really meant was that until the resonance problem was identified and corrected the Electra was dangerous, just as the square-window Comet or (in storms) an uncorrected 707 could be.  I could probably add a different cargo-door latch and sensoe mechanism on the DC-10 to the list.  In all these cases the underlying aircraft design was good, and in my opinion at least the common-mode failures couldn't have been predicted at the time.  But until fixed, the problems had 'teeth'.

[NDG]

Et Une Autre.

http://www.cjad.com/cjad-news/2015/03/08/northern-ontario-train-derailment-prompts-more-safety-concerns

Merci.

[NorthWest]

erikem

In regards to the Electras - keep in mind that the USN and the navies of a couple of other countries, have had good experience with the P-3C (ASW version of the Electra).

The L-188s, after the engine mount issues were resolved, went on to be very reliable aircraft, they just got caught up in the introduction of jet aircraft a few years later. A similar thing happened with the De Havilland Comet; the RAF Hawker-Siddley Nimrod performed the same duties as the P3C for the UK until 2011. The P3Cs are magnificent aircraft, but they are showing their age, and the P-8 Posiedens are entering service.

[erikem]

Blue Streak, Wizlish,

In regards to the Electras - keep in mind that the USN and the navies of a couple of other countries, have had good experience with the P-3C (ASW version of the Electra).

- Erik

[BaltACD]

 

I suspect the bearing 'wrung' while being moved to the nearest 'repair point'.  When the bearing wrung the truck frame dropped down to rail level and the trainline, depending upon it's location, may have been severed by the wheel flange. (The term 'Wrung Journal' most likely had it's origin with the good old farm boys that would 'wring' a chickens neck as the first step in preparing a fresh chicken dinner.)

Remember, a hot box in the middle of nowhere can't be repaired there.  I has to be moved to a location where heavy equipment can operate.

[Paul of Covington]

   According to the article about the LPG car, the bearing heated up and severed the air line, causing the automatic brake application.   From what little I know about railcars, I don't see how.   The bearing is nowhere near the air pipe.   Since they said the train was moving at 4 MPH, Balt's explanation made sense, but maybe something gave way during the slow move, and the car falling caused the break???

[blue streak 1]

Wizlish

(I might also mention that, as it turned out, people would have been right to fear flying on the Electras - there were resonant effects in the paddle-blade props as designed that made them at least as much a progressive disaster in the making as square-window Comets...)

 

 

Not so fast.  American airlines at Tell city, In & Northwest airline in Florida were by the gyroscopic precession problem that had almost been solved.  When  --  Eastern Airline in Boston crashed.  BOS was caused by ingestion of sea gulls into all four engines  which even Captain Sulley could not have recovered as the loss of hydraulic control of the Electra sealed its doom. As well engine prop wash over the wings provided partial  lift not provided by airflow.  That was when the precession problem was positively identified and was quickly solved by changing the angle of incidence of the Allison engines.

 

[BaltACD]

Wizlish

samfp1943

Then you have an incident such as this one involving a tank car of LPG Mar. 7 in Vt. See link story @ http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2015/03/06/derailment-of-tank-cars-closes-vt-15-in-essex-junction/24491849/ One can imagine the weeping and gnashing of teeth had it been a 'crude' incident.

As I read this story - with knowledge of how a railroad really operates.  The car, at some location prior to Essex Jct. was identified as a Hot Box.  I am going to 'guess' that there was no nearby location to set out the bad order at the location it was discovered. 

On my carrier, the reporting of such a instance (for any car - not just LPG or other HAZMAT) would have the Car Dept dispatched to make a decision if the car was safe to move to the next possible setout location, or if it was not safe to go that far; safe to move to the nearest road crossing where it would be possible for the 'Shop Truck' or rail service contractor to rewheel the offending car.  The normal speed to move an observed Hot Box is a MAXIMUM of 4 MPH (walking speed) - personnel are to walk along with the bad order in their sight with radio contact to the Engineer to stop the movement should the journal actually fail (wrung). 

In reading the account, I will surmize that the Hot Box car was the 3rd car from the rear of the train.  The train was walked to the road crossing in Essex Jct and then left for personnel to rewheel the car.  The pictures with the article don't show that anything was derailed, just that a wheel set was being replaced.

[Paul of Covington]

zugmann

 

schlimm

 

ruderunner

if anyone knows a conductor from back in the WWII days who ran behind oil trains

 

 

 

 

 

I bet he'd be real tired, too!

 

  I'm still laughing. 

[Wizlish]

samfp1943

Then you have an incident such as this one involving a tank car of LPG Mar. 7 in Vt. See link story @ http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2015/03/06/derailment-of-tank-cars-closes-vt-15-in-essex-junction/24491849/ One can imagine the weeping and gnashing of teeth had it been a 'crude' incident.

Reading the cause of that incident as given in that story, the hair on the back of my neck is well and truly risen.  A bearing heats up enough to sever an air line (!!?) on a train moving 4 mph?  On an LPG tanker? 

I do think the point that Sam was making is right, though; imagine the fun the 'Blast Zone' people would have with that overheated-bearing/severed air line tale on a car full of Bakken crude. 

(I might also mention that, as it turned out, people would have been right to fear flying on the Electras - there were resonant effects in the paddle-blade props as designed that made them at least as much a progressive disaster in the making as square-window Comets...)

[Randy Stahl]

I didn't think the crude sloshed much at all, compared to acid or ethenol the oil cars are pretty tame.

 

Randy

[zugmann]

schlimm

 

ruderunner

if anyone knows a conductor from back in the WWII days who ran behind oil trains

 

 

I bet he'd be real tired, too!

[zugmann]

ruderunner

IIRC truck drivers need a sepecial endorsement on their liscense to haul tankers. I coversed with one about it long ago and he stated that the load sloshing does make a huge difference in handling the trailer. I could see this happening on railcars as well but perhaps the engineers are a bit more isolated from the effects due to train length etc. Some info from a trucker (Ulrich?) would help here and if anyone knows a conductor from back in the WWII days who ran behind oil trains I'm betting they could shed some light on slosh and slack action. For that matter what about running a caboose at the end of a few oil trains to see how it feels to the conductor? Would a dyno car be able to measure soome forces like slack run in (I'm sure power surges and drops could be measured at least)?

 

 

You don't need to dig up a conductor from 100 years ago.  A modern rail crew can tell you about sloshing in tank cars that are used today.

[dehusman]

Railroads have been running trains of mostly tank cars out of the chemical producing regions of the country for decades.  They have been running unit trains of alcohol (in the same type tank cars) for decades.  This isn't the first rodeo for the railroads and media. 

[ROBERT WILLISON]

If I am not mistaken  has't the d&h  and cp  been running oil trains into Albany NY since the late 90's? 

[schlimm]

ruderunner

if anyone knows a conductor from back in the WWII days who ran behind oil trains

 

Let's see.  WWII ended 70 years ago.  Even a young 20 year-old concuctor or brakeman then would be 90 now.  However, younger men wouldave benn mostly drafted during the previous three years, so that any exempted existing employees would be likely over 95 now.

[ruderunner]

IIRC truck drivers need a sepecial endorsement on their liscense to haul tankers. I coversed with one about it long ago and he stated that the load sloshing does make a huge difference in handling the trailer. I could see this happening on railcars as well but perhaps the engineers are a bit more isolated from the effects due to train length etc. Some info from a trucker (Ulrich?) would help here and if anyone knows a conductor from back in the WWII days who ran behind oil trains I'm betting they could shed some light on slosh and slack action. For that matter what about running a caboose at the end of a few oil trains to see how it feels to the conductor? Would a dyno car be able to measure soome forces like slack run in (I'm sure power surges and drops could be measured at least)?

[MidlandMike]

Euclid

I don't think there will be a choice to use trucks if oil by rail is banned.  The only option will be to leave Bakken oil in the ground until trains are proven safe to handle it. 

 

There is unused pipeline capacity from the Bakken.  Th two largest Canadian pipeline companies are re-purposing existing lines to haul Bakken to the east coast, with marine outlets.  There are more pipelines in the works from the Bakken to the mid-west and the Gulf coast where the crude could follow traditional tanker routes to the East Coast.  There is no chance the oil will be left in the ground, other than world oil economic reasons.

[tree68]

While I don't disagree with the potential effect of the sloshing, I do question whether it even occurs.  

The tankers are built to carry around 30,000 gallons of product.  I have to believe they are filled to that capacity.  Why would the shipper waste capacity?  Especially 1/4 of that capacity.

 

[MidlandMike]

WilliamKiesel

...

Bakken crude oil is a stratified multi constituent liquid...

 

I don't know how or if this affects the rest of your post, however, The Canadian safety agency analyzed crude from different depths in intact tank cars from the Lac Megantic disaster, and found that the liquid phase of the Bakken crude was not stratified.

[Euclid]

Actually, I don’t think “sloshing” is the right term for the effect that I am wondering about.  What I am wondering about is not harmonic oscillation such as might be implied by the liquid sloshing side to side or even end to end if there were some way that could develop.

What I am wondering about is the effect of the oil surging ahead as the slack runs in.  This type of surging would be like a second type of slack run-in that would add energy to the coupler/draft gear slack run-in. How that would play out exactly, I do not know.  But say the tanks are only ¾ full and the slack runs in.  As it does so, each car impacts the car ahead of it with an increasing amount of force.  As each car impacts, the oil in it will surge ahead and collide with the leading end cap.  Maybe this liquid shock wave would be capable of accumulating force as the slack runs in, and add its accumulating force to the accumulating force of the coupler/draft gear slack run-in. 

Also, consider that the forward surge of oil would dramatically unbalance the load.  Many tons would be added to the loading of the lead car truck on each tank car as many tons are removed from the loading of the rear car truck on each car.  This weight transfer would cause the cars to tilt with their front ends dropping and the back ends rising.  It would cause a significant overloading of the lead trucks, and a corresponding overloading of the track under each lead truck.      

Maybe this truck overloading breaks rails.  Or maybe the exaggerated slack run-in builds force to the point where it causes two cars to jackknife.   

[tree68]

Harmonics are chiefly a function of stick rail.  Welded rail won't usually see that.

The exact speed has a lot to do with the length of the car vs the length of the sticks of rail.  Not all are 39'.  I can usually tell when I'm around 15-17 MPH on the locomotive...

I think we're putting too much emphasis on "sloshing."  If it were a significant problem, we'd be encountering it on hilly lines.

[Euclid]

Paul_D_North_Jr

*Covered hoppers were noted in another post above as having a high COG, but I didn't see this specific rocking mechanism mentioned.

Paul,

I mentioned in a previous post this:

“I would think that loaded tank cars have a relatively high center of gravity compared to other rolling stock such as covered hoppers or even gondolas.

Perhaps the shapeless nature of the tank car load also plays a role. All freight cars have slack action which can run in and run out with enough force to pull a drawbar or jackknife cars. A tank car with enough air space above the load might produce another version of "slack action" as the load itself runs in against the leading end of the tank.

Perhaps the typical coupler and draft gear slack “run-in” is causing a secondary “run-in” of the oil load itself, thus multiplying the normal slack run-in typical of any freight train.

Maybe it is time for the rectangular, “fish belly” tank car that is sized to be nearly full of oil when its weight capacity is reached.”

--------------------------------------------------------------

I am familiar with that harmonic rocking action that you are referring to.  It seemed like that was a big deal back in the 1970-1990 era.  Trains were supposed to avoid a critical speed range as much as possible.  I think it was roughly 17-22 mph. 

But I never heard that the car center of gravity played any role in the problem.  In any case, wouldn’t a loaded covered hopper have a much lower center of gravity than a loaded tank car?  With the hopper, you have lots of weight down in the bins extending nearly to the rail head elevation.  The tank car has no weight in a similar position.  Even at coupler height, and moving up from there, the tank car mass would lag behind the hopper because of the cylindrical shape of the tank.  I suppose the mass of the hopper might tend to equalize with the tank car because the mass of the hopper would extend to a higher elevation than the tank. 

[Euclid]

ECP brakes alone would help with the oil train derailment problem, and they have been advocated for that purpose by the Secretary of Transportation.  But the railroads have strongly resisted the idea.  Not only do they object to the cost of converting the oil trains, but they also might see any introduction of ECP brakes as necessarily being tied to a universal changeover of the entire North American fleet of rolling stock. 

Neither the proposal nor its refusal has clarified whether the call for ECP brakes would be just limited to oil trains.  But even if the ECP brakes were limited to just oil trains, the railroads would also strongly object to oil trains being dedicated trains as opposed to loose car railroading.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

I believe - but am no expert - that the fuel tanks of diesel locomotives do in fact have baffles.  They're not cleaned out as tank cars are, so the baffles would not be an impediment to that. 

On sloshing: I'm skeptical, but have no research or expertise in that, either.  Nevertheless, I will point out the analogy of the covered hoppers* - another type of car with a higher Center Of Gravity - rocking themselves off the track by a harmonic motion with increasing amplitude when encountering track with excessively low joints in sequence (very poor/ defective surface and cross-level variations - led to the FRA Track Safety Standards, among other defects).  Those low spots should have been removed by now (the track structure seemed to 'remember' them for a while) via several decades of rail and tie replacements, additional ballast and surfacing, etc., so that's likely not the actual cause, but maybe something similar.  

*Covered hoppers were noted in another post above as having a high COG, but I didn't see this specific rocking mechanism mentioned.

- Paul North.

[Euclid]

Somebody mentioned previously that Bakken oil is loaded to only partly fill the tank because its weight would overload the car if the tank were filled 100%.  Can anybody confirm this?

If the tank is completely filled, it won't slosh, and therefore it would not gain anything from baffles.