It's been a couple of years since my "Hunter...So Far" topic. I've come back because I need to write. I need to air my thoughts publicly because it is so difficult to tolerate the politics at CP. I need to get it off my chest. I need your opinions. For those of you who don’t remember I’ve been a CP employee for many years. I’ve been a locomotive engineer for many years now. I don’t go into specifics of myself or what I do or where I am because I fear for my livelihood. However, I do believe in trying to right a wrong and I hope CP employees come here. Hopefully, EHH himself might even poke his nose around here from time to time.
So what is it? What has been eating at me since Hunter took over. What is wrong? How come nothing has integrity anymore? You know that feeling. It occurs when you know something is wrong but you can't put your finger on it. It's a queasy feeling in my gizzard that just won't go away. I finally figured it out.
I don't want to get into the details of each and every little thing CP does to discredit and belittle its employees because that is simple to understand. CP wants the union gone. Every opportunity they have, they violate the collective agreement, and if the collective agreement works in their favor, they use it against us.
But that isn't really the issue. I actually agree somewhat. The agreement is a legacy agreement. It needs a complete rewrite. Start with a blank page and lets figure it out. Lets spell out the expectations of the company and put a monetary value on it. Lets figure out how to run the business and give your employees quality time at home. Let's figure out a work/life balance.
Unfortunately, CP had a golden opportunity recently to be rid of that legacy agreement and start fresh. The recent 2 day strike by T&E up here in Canada resolved nothing. Actually, all it will accomplish is a guarantee that more of the same union busting measures will continue for the duration of the next contract.
Interesting. I don't know exactly what CP was pitching to the union but I believe they were trying to sell a better life and better pay if the union trashes the old collective agreement. Why couldn't senior management sell the idea of a better life and better pay to the union? Union protectionism? Sure that is part of it. Lack of communication? Yes. That was there. I still don't know exactly what the company was offering. I don't even know what the union was asking for. I voted to strike for another reason.
Recently, a bulletin was issued by our new GM. Then it dawned on me. Reading this bulletin I couldn't believe my eyes. It was the most blatant pack of lies I have ever read. Not only was it a lie, it was wrapped around a perceived safety issue. In reality, if a person followed the new rule as it is written, it would create a very serious safety violation. It would expose employees to additional risk of injury and even death in very rare cases.
Not only was a lie put to paper and issued as a bulletin, an attempt to increase efficiency was wrapped by a safety issue! Either this GM is ignorant of basic railroading or is purposely lying and belittling his employees.
The bulletin created a rule that requires an employee to stand on the footboard of the locomotive at all times. It applies to yard and industrial crews. The safety issue pointed out in the bulletin was that it will reduce run-through switches and sideswipes. On the surface this appears reasonable, but these issues are already covered in the CROR.
This GM even went against Hunter's own belief that we already have enough rules. We only need to enforce the rules more rigourously. There are many rules that already cover the situations mentioned above. Very important rules such as... protecting the point , operating at reduced speed, and operating hand operated switches.
Upon talking about this bulletin with FLMs (Front Line Managers), it has been perceived that this bulletin is not about safety but it's about discipline. It is targeted against the employees who dog**** once the engineer arrives at a switch. I know this. There was a time when I was expected to be on the footboard with key in hand ready to line a switch once we arrived. Now many new employees don't have a sense of urgency and take their sweet time to get up and out the door to line a switch. When the bulletin is reread with this adjusted perspective, it makes complete sense.
So why lie? Why not issue a bulletin that tells it like it is?
Lets go back to why CP could not sell their new collective agreement to the union? Its because of GMs like the one above that lies to his/her employees. The management has lied so much to the employees that we don't trust anything the company says anymore.
It's another whole new post to explain why managers with good intentions lie so easily and frequently.
I voted to strike. I didn't even know the details of the issues each side were pushing. I voted to strike because I trust the union more than the management at CP.
That is the problem!
Ok. Why does "Hunter Hate Trees?" One of the most noticeable physical changes we see around here is that all the trees near the right of way have been cleared out. Miles upon miles of mowed down trees. Clear cut logging at it best.
cptrainman Ok. Why does "Hunter Hate Trees?" One of the most noticeable physical changes we see around here is that all the trees near the right of way have been cleared out. Miles upon miles of mowed down trees. Clear cut logging at it best.
Believe you will find all RR managements despise trees. Every time a tree falls onto tracks delays may result and costs MOW tiime. Trees are especially undesireable in electrified territory when they take down CAT. Amtrak is being proactive by planting low growth vegetation where they remove tall trees.
Heard a story that an engineer got badly injured by a tree trunk coming into his cab.
Hunter's stint on the IC may have been especially enlighting as our southern pines as well as other trees have a very bad habit of growing toward any open area. Open track certainly attracts trees to lean over the track ready to fall during any storm or snow and / or ice.
However Your comments about CP appears correct.
BTW we hate trees close to the roads and highways as well.
Reading the original post, all I can really say is that I'm glad I'm retired. I remember back when railroading was fun. Sure, you had the occasional efficiency test, but mostly the Trainmasters knew enough to just stay out of the way. We would get the work done on time without breaking anyone or anything, and we would get, as our reward, a nice early quit.
When some new official would try to make a name for himself, he would succed, but not in the way he anticipated. Once the harrassment started, things slowed to a crawl (following every rule to the letter results in clogged yards and delayed trains). It wouldn't be too long before the new official found himself "laterally transfered" to a more office-oriented position. We were only too glad to help him achieve his new role.
These days wth cameras in the cab, event recorders recording each time you wipe your nose, and it seems just about everyone is 'pithed' off at each other's craft, it's just not that much of a fun place to work.
cptrainman The bulletin created a rule that requires an employee to stand on the footboard of the locomotive at all times. It applies to yard and industrial crews. The safety issue pointed out in the bulletin was that it will reduce run-through switches and sideswipes.
The bulletin created a rule that requires an employee to stand on the footboard of the locomotive at all times. It applies to yard and industrial crews. The safety issue pointed out in the bulletin was that it will reduce run-through switches and sideswipes.
"Upon talking about this bulletin with FLMs (Front Line Managers), it has been perceived that this bulletin is not about safety but it's about discipline. It is targeted against the employees who dog**** once the engineer arrives at a switch. I know this. There was a time when I was expected to be on the footboard with key in hand ready to line a switch once we arrived. Now many new employees don't have a sense of urgency and take their sweet time to get up and out the door to line a switch. When the bulletin is reread with this adjusted perspective, it makes complete sense."
Sometimes a kind lie works better than the cold unvarnished truth. Cloaking the issue in "we care about safety" might make the message go down easier than saying something like "for you slackers and loafers out there".. We all lie to some extent to spare others' feelings or perhaps sometimes just to get the job done.
The crux of the problem at CP appears to be one of lack of good communication... I mean if you're not even sure of what your own union is offering then clearly that's a communications problem. Likewise with management.. they need to figure out how to get their message out better. I'm a shareholder and I don't know the issues either except in the broadest of terms.
Sometimes things aren't as they seem.. and I think that's especially true of any complex undertaking like running a large business. Instructions and rules are interpreted and enforced in different ways by people who vary in temperment, motivation, and ability. People work at cross purposes, and don't communicate properly. One can become more involved in the union and one can accept what one cannot change.. Sometimes it is best to believe that the powers that be are honestly trying to improve things... I don't know Hunter or his senior managment team; however I don't think they're attempting to undermine the organization.
The industry, not just CP, is fast reaching the point where senior operating management is lacking field experience and are creating policies on matters in which they do not have first hand knowledge. They have all the higher education in the world, however, they are lacking on what it takes to operate a railroad on the ground.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
That can't be said for Harrison though.. He has no higher education, only hands on experience. And his protege Keith Kreel is arguably the best railroad operations manager in the biz.
Ulrich That can't be said for Harrison though.. He has no higher education, only hands on experience. And his protege Keith Kreel is arguably the best railroad operations manager in the biz.
Yeah, but they are up in the ivory tower.
The managers manging the day to day operations on the ground probaly have no real RR experience. We lament often about the loss of the old head managers. Esp. with all the new guys coming into the T&E craft. It was not uncommon even up to a few years ago to see a old head tranmaster accompanying a newly marked up conductor on their first solo days alone in the yard. Not to write them up, or try to train them , but just to be there to give them an extra shot of confidence they needed on those first few hours.
Don't see stuff like that anymore. A shame, really. Of course with what the managers are paid and the hours expected of them - why would anyoen from teh craft take the pay cut and forced relocations?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zardoz cptrainman The bulletin created a rule that requires an employee to stand on the footboard of the locomotive at all times. It applies to yard and industrial crews. The safety issue pointed out in the bulletin was that it will reduce run-through switches and sideswipes. OP: You still have footboards on your locomotives? I thought they went away about the same time as the high ladders and the running boards on the top of railcars.
OP: You still have footboards on your locomotives? I thought they went away about the same time as the high ladders and the running boards on the top of railcars.
The footboards have been gone for years. That is how the bulletin read. I am sure the GM means the side ladder of the locomotive.
We did discuss the "cloaking of the issue" with a safety angle. Every employee that I have discussed this with agrees. The truth should have been stated. Yes, I agree that the truth may have hurt some feelings and caused perhaps widespread condemnation of the GM, but we all agree, at the end of the day honesty can be respected. Even if people disagree with the message, at least it can be respected if its honest. If it can be respected, then the author gains respect. That is my opinion.
Once again I find myself needing to respect the "Title" of a manager rather than the person who holds the position.
As far as union busting goes, I believe there is a conscious effort by CP management to break the union. I don't want to go into the details here as there are so many examples I can give that it would require a new post. I learned of a union busting phrase from long ago from a whiteboard at CPs own offices, "If it isn't broke, break it."
Yes, I agree. Major communication problem on both side. Management and union.
Sorry, this was in reply to Ulrich. I'm still not conversant with all the editing functions of the forum.
BaltACD The industry, not just CP, is fast reaching the point where senior operating management is lacking field experience and are creating policies on matters in which they do not have first hand knowledge. They have all the higher education in the world, however, they are lacking on what it takes to operate a railroad on the ground.
Thank you. Its very frustrating.
I know of one supervisor who asked to work with people in the field for a year to gain experience. Management approved, and he returned to his position much better able to do his job.
Norm
zugmann Ulrich That can't be said for Harrison though.. He has no higher education, only hands on experience. And his protege Keith Kreel is arguably the best railroad operations manager in the biz. Yeah, but they are up in the ivory tower. The managers manging the day to day operations on the ground probaly have no real RR experience. We lament often about the loss of the old head managers. Esp. with all the new guys coming into the T&E craft. It was not uncommon even up to a few years ago to see a old head tranmaster accompanying a newly marked up conductor on their first solo days alone in the yard. Not to write them up, or try to train them , but just to be there to give them an extra shot of confidence they needed on those first few hours. Don't see stuff like that anymore. A shame, really. Of course with what the managers are paid and the hours expected of them - why would anyoen from teh craft take the pay cut and forced relocations?
I've met Mr. Harrison but he did not say a word to me nor did I to him. He was surrounded by too many people. I also met and shook the hand of Mr. Kreel but he did not say anything either.
Yes there is a ton of inexperience at all levels. It's frustrating but I can deal with it. I can't stand the liars and lack of integrity of people in upper managment. Even TMs that lie make me nuts, but I can see why they do it. They are under pressure from above them to keep things moving.
I think what is most irratating is the kid TM who knows nothing of the rules or of local operations who has the power to suspend me indefinately without pay. These people haven't even seen why and how bad things happen. They don't know the rules clearly but they hold me accountable to a level that they cannot themselves work at. TMs work as if they are above the law. They break every rule in the book then discipline me and my coworkers for doing the exact same thing as they.
What drives me nutz are these managers that hold me to such a high level of professionalism but are not able or willing to do so themselves.
cptrainmanWhat drives me nutz are these managers that hold me to such a high level of professionalism but are not able or willing to do so themselves.
But to play devil's advocate: their job is not the same as your job. So they don't necessarily have to be able (or want to) do it. We sometimes forget that.
Yes. The TM is supposed to lead. He/she should lead by example. This probably comes from my years in the military where officers took care of the men/woman under them and in return the men/woman took care of the officer's needs.
When it comes to railroad rules, it is one thing to know the wording of the rule and a wholely different thing to know how to apply the rule(s) to actual operational situations. Especially with today's rule books that have moved away from writing rules in simple declarative English that can be understood and complied with by most anyone with a grade school education. Today's rules are being written in legalese - legalese that a army of lawyers could spend their entire career's litigating. Leaving those employees who must use the rules in the performance of their daily job at the risk of a supervisor that only knows the words of the rules, not their application. Gotcha!
I wish I had access to the statistics of the number of investigations (employee trials) for rules violation that result in discipline assessed at the field level that is later overturned at either the carriers higher levels of review, or with the issue being taken to further appeal through Union appeal channels. Overturning assessed discipline is not a unusual occurrence.
Most roadmasters hate trees - unless it's helping stabilize a hillside, it should go.
Proud member of the "black thumb" gang. (If it grows, it dies on my R/W)
I live in British Columbia. I would use the term "clear-cutting" advisedly differently in view of the millions of hectares of truly clear-cut logging done in the 80's and early 90's. I don't think it works well in a railroad context, whether-or-not HH is the impetus for the changes in question. Seems to me that if he is indeed ordering wholesale cutting of trees nearest the right-of-way, he is doing something modestly sensible, given his track record for turning marginal corporations around.
[Former officer in the CF, teach leadership and ethics to officers and NCMs enrolled in Officer Professional Military Examination PSE 402 (OPME) "Leadership and Ethics" course, mandatory for all officers requiring boarding to the rank of Major. Also teach a 400 level ethics course for the department of continuing studies at a university in Canada.]
blue streak 1 Believe you will find all RR managements despise trees. Every time a tree falls onto tracks delays may result and costs MOW tiime. Trees are especially undesireable in electrified territory when they take down CAT. Amtrak is being proactive by planting low growth vegetation where they remove tall trees. Heard a story that an engineer got badly injured by a tree trunk coming into his cab. Hunter's stint on the IC may have been especially enlighting as our southern pines as well as other trees have a very bad habit of growing toward any open area. Open track certainly attracts trees to lean over the track ready to fall during any storm or snow and / or ice.
Amen to this. Regarding those pines, they behave just as Streak says -- and ruin the ride on the Texas Eagle for four or five hours, from Texarkana south, as I discovered this fall. I wish U.P. were as handy with a chain saw or bulldozer as Hunter Harrison.
BaltACD When it comes to railroad rules, it is one thing to know the wording of the rule and a wholely different thing to know how to apply the rule(s) to actual operational situations. Especially with today's rule books that have moved away from writing rules in simple declarative English that can be understood and complied with by most anyone with a grade school education. Today's rules are being written in legalese - legalese that a army of lawyers could spend their entire career's litigating. Leaving those employees who must use the rules in the performance of their daily job at the risk of a supervisor that only knows the words of the rules, not their application. Gotcha! I wish I had access to the statistics of the number of investigations (employee trials) for rules violation that result in discipline assessed at the field level that is later overturned at either the carriers higher levels of review, or with the issue being taken to further appeal through Union appeal channels. Overturning assessed discipline is not a unusual occurrence.
In most cases, the solution is not a new rule, but getting out and enforcing the ones that are already in place, even if it's messy and sloppy to gather the evidence and go to the hearing. Thankfully, with digital and video cameras, it's a lot easier to do these days, rather than the "he said - she said" style of years gone by.
- Paul North.
dakotafredI wish U.P. were as handy with a chain saw or bulldozer as Hunter Harrison.
We carry a chain saw on all of our trains - and all to often have need to use it. And not just after a weather event.
Because much of our line is within the Adirondack Park, we are restricted somewhat with what we can cut. In fact, if a tree falls across the ROW, it usually gets cut back to the edge of the ROW, and no more.
Highways often get the same treatment. NYS Route 3 through the Adirondacks used to be a "tree tunnel," with the forest tight to the road. Any improvement to the road has resulted in a wide swath and plenty of daylight.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Don't worry Larry- I don't think Hunter hates you personally.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Something that seems to have been overlooked is that management requires a different set of skills than that of the line worker. A really good engineer or conductor may or may not be a good RFE or TM. A fair to middling operating person may have the skills to be an excellent supervisor.
CSSHEGEWISCH A fair to middling operating person may have the skills to be an excellent supervisor.
A fair to middling operating person may have the skills to be an excellent supervisor.
It's just a shame the payscale, hours, and forced relocations make the job unappealing to many of those that do posess such skills.
CSSHEGEWISCHSomething that seems to have been overlooked is that management requires a different set of skills than that of the line worker.
Don't forget the other oddball thing in the corporate world. Sometimes a person spectacularly good at his job WON'T get promoted out of it because those over him don't know who they'll replace him with who's as good!
tree68 CSSHEGEWISCH Something that seems to have been overlooked is that management requires a different set of skills than that of the line worker. The Peter Principle in a nutshell...
CSSHEGEWISCH Something that seems to have been overlooked is that management requires a different set of skills than that of the line worker.
The Peter Principle in a nutshell...
I think what the original poster was saying is that the new front line (and sometimes even higher) managers don't know how things work out in the real world. (See on the internet any of the meme pictures of a young person with a book or manual with the caption, "I don't know how to do your job, but my book says you're doing it wrong." I don't think this is just a railroad industry phenomena either. I think it's a growing trend that if you are a line worker, especially if you don't have a 4 year degree, you are incapable of functioning without being told how to do everything.)
They come up with ideas and rules, especially rules that are supposed to be for our safety, that do little but slow production. Then when production slips, they are howling mad (literally, one manager had an EEO complaint filed against him for his actions) and threaten to eliminate jobs. (They came down on one of our terminals where production had slipped. Threatened to close it down and let the business go to trucks. The yard had recently had a rash of incidents and new rules and procedures had been issued. Compliance slowed things to a trickle.)
Of course what do I know. I'm just what some in the glass palace refer to as, "train trash."
Jeff
Firelock76 Don't forget the other oddball thing in the corporate world. Sometimes a person spectacularly good at his job WON'T get promoted out of it because those over him don't know who they'll replace him with who's as good!
Found myself in that position once and the company came out the loser. I moved on, and there was no one to take my place.
I think the more important question that needs to be asked in this thread are why are American business executives repeatedly called upon to take the helm of Canadian transport companies and straighten them out financially (airlines and railroads both). What is it about Canadian education or culture in which they believe running a business is like running a social club with perks with no regard to remaining competitive?
Thats really the Elephant in the room, IMO.
jeffhergert [ snipped - PDN.] . . . See on the internet any of the meme pictures of a young person with a book or manual with the caption, "I don't know how to do your job, but my book says you're doing it wrong." . . .
"I don't know how to do your job, but I saw a video on YouTube . . . " (credit belongs to Steve Goffredo of Muschlitz Excavating, Inc.)
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