http://news.yahoo.com/obama-designate-3-national-monuments-183057405--politics.html
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Not to pick on or split words, but from the article - a fairly well-written one, too - my understanding that the Pullman Neighborhood effectively is a National Monument upon designation by the President. Apparently nothing further needs to be done from a legal and administrative perspective - there's not a process that's commenced by a required "proposal" first, then an approval, consent, or concurrence, etc., by Congress. The National Monument status is apparently complete upon its designation by the President.
Except, of course, for putting up a marker or plaque of some kind.
- Paul North.
What scares some people is that if you own land out west and if you have a ranch the President can take your land and restrict what you do with it by declaring it a "National Monument".---- That being said the Pullman District in Chicago has needed help for a long time. Why this was not done when Obama was a Senator from that district or sooner is a #%$%&&!
You may have been misled by the pompous self-aggrandizing rhetoric of some of the politicians as quoted in that article.
If some people are scared, it's self-inflicted or paranoia, etc. Land that they own outright can't be "taken" or significantly* impaired in value without "just compensation" being paid. That's an actual written part of the 5th Amendment of the Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution, which is as important - or more so - than the protection against self-incrimination. It's not a meaningless clause, either - it's invoked often, such as for payment for the 'reversion' rights of railroad rights-of-way when they are used instead for rail-trails.
*In a nutshell, zoning, environmental, historic districts, and other regulations - including this one - are generally not viewed as "takings, either, unless they destroy most or all of the value or usefulness of a property. No one has a right to live or own property completely unencumbered by reasonable rules and regulations for the safety and general welfare of the rest of the citizens - it's essentially a question of "how much is too much".
If they don't own the property outright - i.e., if they lease it from the Federal government, or have some other less-than-permanent arrangement or rights - then they have nothing to complain about. That's exactly what a lease is - it's not permanent or perpetual, and is subject to change, revocation, or cancellation by the landlord (here, Uncle Sam) at each renewal - and they knew (or should have known) that. If they failed to look out for their own interests in those situations, then the responsible persons can been seen in a mirror. If they expected otherwise, that's all they had and have - "mere expectations", which is just about the same validity as hope or wishful thinking, with no legal standing. No sympathy from me for that scenario, either.
Gee, given Pullman's importance in the history of railroading, I would have thought this would be popular and welcomed, not set off some controversy.
Say, does this mean there'll be annual Pullman strike and riot re-enactments? On the actual site?
Funny how no matter what President Obama does, it's always met with "outrage" What would be wonderful if someone started the Pullman company up again.
Pullman is an interesting area of Chicago. I have a customer in that area and am there frequently. It needs some work and hopefully that will occur.
Great timing as perhaps this will allow his former CoS Rahm to get over the hump in the mayorial election.
The hotel in the district is really a cool building.
Ed
MP173The hotel in the district is really a cool building.
Is it named the Florence?
If you read carefully, you'll see that it was only the first part of trackrat888's comment that related to ranches out west, and not the Pullman site.
Back "On Topic" . . . trackrat888 also wrote: "That being said the Pullman District in Chicago has needed help for a long time." I've never been there, so I have no reason to disagree with him - sounds like a worthy idea to me, so we won't be having riots over that point.
Paul_D_North_Jr If some people are scared, it's self-inflicted or paranoia, etc. Land that they own outright can't be "taken" or significantly* impaired in value without "just compensation" being paid.
If some people are scared, it's self-inflicted or paranoia, etc. Land that they own outright can't be "taken" or significantly* impaired in value without "just compensation" being paid.
In a given case, the owner's security depends on what the court says. Some impairments to value are not seen as such by the court, so no relief for the owner.
With a building, the owner reserves the right to tear it down, but usually not to modify it in a way that might make it useful -- for instance, in a case in New York City I read about, with addition of an exterior elevator.
Owners of land or buildings are properly wary.
Worked in the area for the shortline owner of some of the surviving railroad, both Pullman and Rock Island. Shame that most of the commercial/shops buildings have been flattened that would have better explained the "company town". In addition, International Harvester's complex was also nearby and those three made for interesting research.
Non withstanding the news reports, the government only has the right to take private property by rule of "eminent domain" when the public good is at stake. Acquision of property for public dams, highways and other public purposes had been the only occasion when this has been legally done.
Until, the black mayor of Detroit, Colman Young took a major Polish neighborhood in Detroit for a new General Motors factory citing that the need of jobs outweighed the rights of private property. When this was done in the 1980's if was the first incidence in U.S. History of the goverment using "eminent domain" for private business purposes.
I realize that the Enviornmental Protection Agency has used some high handed siezures of property for is own agenda, but I question if the president has such legal powers that cannot be challenged in court, his redefinition of imigration is a perfect example. Depending upon public outcry the discussion is fraught with serious legal challenge issues.
Doc
Here in Albany New York we have the historic "Stockade District". You can't do anything to your house unless you go thru the historic society who is appointed and not elected. As such the Stockade is for only high end singles and lacks diversity.- The Pullman District is composed of middle income black familys that have been there for generations. Giving this a "National Monument" Status made have the unintened consequesnce of making this a trendy neighborhood and leading to WGLBT yuppie gentrification pricing out the working class black familys for a National Monument that was supposed to celebrate there heritage as the grandsons of Pullman Porters.
"Hard cases make for bad law" - meaning that the extremists present unpalatable choices, for the courts and the public. Also, I'll observe that extreme postions usually don't last too long, and often lead to a strong over-reaction in return.
The demolition of Penn Station in New York City in the mid-1960's led to a lot of historic preservation laws.
The leading case in Pennsylvania - I believe it was captioned as United Artists - involved the proposed demolition of a historic theater. The Philadelphia Historical Commission mandated that the street-side 'elevation' or facade remain "as-is", but the company could gut, renovate, and reconfigure the interior. UA objected to that, but lost at the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, which essentially ruled that the regulation as applied in that case was valid, unless UA could show that it made the property unfit for any use and rendered it worthless - which they didn't.
Exterior elevators and other modern safety improvements often present a clash of competing public interests. As John Kneiling often said, "Let the regulators figure it out !". That happens from time to time, too . . .
ADA Regs and railroad stations that have been around for a 100 years dont mix well. Excusion railroads that are non profit have to play catch up with ADA regs but most have been welcome to because of Older disabled riders who are a main custumer base. Now PCC cars in Kenosha and elsewere were a pain in the rear to retrofit for ADA use. Pittsburgh has a number of low platform stations that the T passes by and disbaled have to get a shuttle back to.
I hope the area can be both preserved and remain livable. It would be a shame if some land developer tore down what remains for a shopping strip mall, as Mudchicken pointed out occurred with much already.
Not to be political but rather interjecting some historical reality, the legal basis for presidential declaration of National Monuments, etc. goes back to an act of Congress in 1906.
Since Theodore Roosevelt created the Antiquities Act, nearly every president has used it to protect well known and lesser-known historical, cultural and natural icons. Some examples include:
http://wilderness.org/article/how-we-designate-monuments#sthash.5Ddz3wLm.dpuf
trackrat888 The Pullman District is composed of middle income black familys that have been there for generations. Giving this a "National Monument" Status made have the unintened consequesnce of making this a trendy neighborhood and leading to WGLBT yuppie gentrification pricing out the working class black familys for a National Monument that was supposed to celebrate there heritage as the grandsons of Pullman Porters.
The Pullman District is composed of middle income black familys that have been there for generations. Giving this a "National Monument" Status made have the unintened consequesnce of making this a trendy neighborhood and leading to WGLBT yuppie gentrification pricing out the working class black familys for a National Monument that was supposed to celebrate there heritage as the grandsons of Pullman Porters.
Are you implying that the employees of Pullman who actually lived in the neighborhood and built the cars have no role in the heritage of Pullman the carbuilder?
Paul, I think he is saying that the cost of living in the area may go up.
Johnny
Preserving a canyon or a wilderness site from industrial trespass is very different from taking some urban neighborhood which is and has always been personal property and trying to supervise this a National Park. Go Figure! Such was the National Park created in Scranton. All these Park Rangers trained to watch over Grisley bears and deer are very out of place in this historical industrial setting mirroring the Henry Ford Museum. Congress has struggled with the funding cost also and the issue of what government mandate allows them to enter into supervision of such industrial private property settings.
The register on National Historic Places is also part of this discussion, which was set up to prevent industrial developers from trampeling on some very historic sights. Always a marvel to me how US Government protects Civil War battlefields which were Union Army victories but have traditionally shunned such sites of battlefield loss and Confederate victory like the Manasses - Bull Run battlefield which is being over run with commercial development.
Creating a Pullman Site National Park which seems is about equivalent to National Historic Register sight? brings government supervision over any changes to the existing buildings government, laws police, fire and political services - trash pickup etc. Christian Churches that are historic and in such predicament are often counceled never to allow the Historic Site designation because the congregations can no longer change, modify or operate the structures for updated usage. The Federal Govenment also has huge issues with all religious communities except Muslum which they for some reason seem to feel they must protect.
Wouldn't be nice to have them protect New York Grand Central Station, but if it was no longer usable as a train station wouldn't it then become a "monument to the stupidity of man" or government for spending taxpayer money to maintain it!
Chicago is already a somewhat lawless town from a Federal Perspective. Think about a city situated in three states, with three governments each over part of it. Multiple municipalites each with its own "local government" jurisdiction, and local "law enforcement" etc. You have your State Law of Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconson. Wide variantions in traffic law, gun ownership, the death penalty etc. plus its all situated on a huge "fresh water sea" supervised by US Coast Guard, Homeland Security, Multiple Sherif Departments and City of Chicago Police.
A city so immence it encompasses country "hicks" from Indiana, super sophisticated liberal Chicago, Illinois elete residents, as well as poor, and fresh from the "dairy land" Wisconson radical Republicans - all in one city.
What Mayor? I can just see the Feds under Obama "licking their chops" for another District of Columbia. What are you going to do Chicago when President Obama comes home with his library, Secret Service Protection, retirement residence, and National Park? Crown him king?
All I can say Chicago is "better get ready for Obama Rex!" The Brits do quite well with it? Just need to learn to say "Yes Your Magisty!"
Dr D Preserving a canyon or a wilderness site from industrial trespass is very different from taking some urban neighborhood which is and has always been personal property and trying to supervise this a National Park. Go Figure! Such was the National Park created in Scranton. All these Park Rangers trained to watch over Grisley bears and deer are very out of place in this historical industrial setting mirroring the Henry Ford Museum. Congress has struggled with the funding cost also and the issue of what government mandate allows them to enter into supervision of such industrial private property settings. The register on National Historic Places is also part of this discussion, which was set up to prevent industrial developers from trampeling on some very historic sights. Always a marvel to me how US Government protects Civil War battlefields which were Union Army victories but have traditionally shunned such sites of battlefield loss and Confederate victory like the Manasses - Bull Run battlefield which is being over run with commercial development. Creating a Pullman Site National Park which seems is about equivalent to National Historic Register sight? brings government supervision over any changes to the existing buildings government, laws police, fire and political services - trash pickup etc. Christian Churches that are historic and in such predicament are often counceled never to allow the Historic Site designation because the congregations can no longer change, modify or operate the structures for updated usage. The Federal Govenment also has huge issues with all religious communities except Muslum which they for some reason seem to feel they must protect. Wouldn't be nice to have them protect New York Grand Central Station, but if it was no longer usable as a train station wouldn't it then become a "monument to the stupidity of man" or government for spending taxpayer money to maintain it! Chicago is already a somewhat lawless town from a Federal Perspective. Think about a city situated in three states, with three governments each over part of it. Multiple municipalites each with its own "local government" jurisdiction, and local "law enforcement" etc. You have your State Law of Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconson. Wide variantions in traffic law, gun ownership, the death penalty etc. plus its all situated on a huge "fresh water sea" supervised by US Coast Guard, Homeland Security, Multiple Sherif Departments and City of Chicago Police. A city so immence it encompasses country "hicks" from Indiana, super sophisticated liberal Chicago, Illinois elete residents, as well as poor, and fresh from the "dairy land" Wisconson radical Republicans - all in one city. What Mayor? I can just see the Feds under Obama "licking their chops" for another District of Columbia. What are you going to do Chicago when President Obama comes home with his library, Secret Service Protection, retirement residence, and National Park? Crown him king? All I can say Chicago is "better get ready for Obama Rex!" The Brits do quite well with it? Just need to learn to say "Yes Your Magisty!" Doc
Russell
Dr Dll I can say Chicago is "better get ready for Obama Rex!" The Brits do quite well with it? Just need to learn to say "Yes Your Magisty!" Doc
How about taking your nonsensical posts and political hatred elsewhere?
From someone that was born and raised in the city, and still lives in the Metropolitian area you have displayed a remakrable lack of understanding and ignorance of the area. And what does this have to do with railroads anyway?
This whole rant is a violation of the third item in the terms of use!
Well said. Shame on Dr. D
Uh, DrD, I usually love your steam posts, and other posts too, but you need to slow down and take a deep breath, buddy.
Sit down, put your feet up, have a beer, put a rail DVD in the player and relax a bit, OK?
Speaking as a friend.
CSSHEGEWISCH trackrat888 The Pullman District is composed of middle income black familys that have been there for generations. Giving this a "National Monument" Status made have the unintened consequesnce of making this a trendy neighborhood and leading to WGLBT yuppie gentrification pricing out the working class black familys for a National Monument that was supposed to celebrate there heritage as the grandsons of Pullman Porters. Are you implying that the employees of Pullman who actually lived in the neighborhood and built the cars have no role in the heritage of Pullman the carbuilder?
How any sensible person could read what you did into trackrat's post is hard to understand. Obviously, he is talking about black descendents being "gentrified" out of their homes, and his disapproval is implicit.
Tolerance, Grasshopper, tolerance.
Norm
Yeah rents and taxes will go up displacing the black familys that live there in favor of making a trendy neighborhood that white millenials will overrun.. Thats what I am saying. I have been to Pullman and was allowed to camp on the grounds 3 years ago and went to church there. Nice neighbors and very quiet.
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