How it was before...

[chutton01]

Sunnyland

Dad talked about seeing autos in boxcars, I think some of them had racks that hung from the roof and the cars had to be tied down.

.Your Dad was correct, there are links to images of such auto-loader/rack systems in the first couple of response posts to this thread. From what I can tell the most common number of autos in the 1930s/1940s was four per boxcar, two suspended in the racks and two on the floor. Most common boxcar for this was, as mentioned, 50ft boxcars, sometimes marked "Automobile" on the side. To tie in with our host MR, I believe one of the freight car models in the Feb 2015 MR article on 3 easy weathering projects was a Leigh Valley Automobile boxcar.  IIRC, shipment by boxcar was falling out of favor quickly by the late 1940s, early 1950s, so the development of the true autorack continued apace to get back the traffic (which it did in the 1960s).

Now, Frisco is gone and so is the Chrysler plant, torn down a few years ago and just a vacant lot.

It's a bit disconcerting the contraction in US domestic auto manufacturing facilities over the past few decades - a large contraction back to the US Midwest. Plants on the East coast (Edison, Tarrytown, Linden, Newark DE, Van Nuys, Baltimore...here's a wiki entry on the topic). 

[Sunnyland]

Dad talked about seeing autos in boxcars, I think some of them had racks that hung from the roof and the cars had to be tied down.  That's why Frisco worked with Chrysler plant in Fenton, MO to develop the tri-level auto car.  They were the first RR to do this, and a tri-level is on display at our Museum of Transport that Frisco donated.  That was a huge business for Frisco at the time,I have a poster that Dad brought home from work that showed a Frisco freight at Chrysler with a consist of only loaded auto rack haulers.  Now, Frisco is gone and so is the Chrysler plant, torn down a few years ago and just a vacant lot.  At least, BNSF kept the Lindenwood Yards open and working. 

[MidlandMike]

On the D&RGW narrow gauge Santa Fe branch (Chili Line) they carried autos to an Espanola, NM Ford dealer, on narrow gauge flats with a hoop and canvas cover that looked much like a covered wagon.

[samfp1943]

CSSHEGEWISCH

 

AgentKid

That was the thing, those cars had only one end that opened. I do not understand how they loaded factory volumes of cars efficiently. It must have been an insane job.

Bruce

 

 

 

Apparently, they didn't, which explains how truckers got almost the entire finished automobile business before autoracks were developed.

I believe that luxury automobiles continued to be shipped in boxcars to be protected from the elements.  Similarly, I've observed that pricier automobiles are currently being hauled in enclosed semi-trailers.

 

Found the following linked photo of an automobile loaded in a Boxcar that could possibly utilizing the system shown load four card in the then standard 40' Boxcar @  http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/1881/boxcar.jpg

and an NKP (model) of a double door car w/ end opening doors @  http://www.lionel.com/Products/Finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-27229&expandBranch=0&Keywords=&CategoryID=455&RailLineID=&CatalogId=

Disclaimer: Yes, I know these are not real boxcars, but models, but they will give someone who has never seen one of this type of car an idea as to what they looked like: @ http://lionelllc.wordpress.com/2012/08/10/freight-car-friday-end-door-boxcars/

To answer another question, they had to be spotted singely, as they were not drive thru. Time consuming, you bet, but 40' Boxcars were the predominent type of car thru the early 1960's.

They, [Boxcars\ hauled most comodities. Some could be loaded with machines(forklifts) but primarily the Box was 'floor loaded' by hand. Even grain was loaded in them( after the holes and cracks in the floors were sealed with paper or cardboard(?). Many boxcars when empty could be found to contain 'grain doors', wooden crosspieced that fit over the open side door which was where the grain could be blown into the ends of the cars.

 

[JoeBlow]

Here in Los Angeles, the Southern Pacific transported finished autos on truck trailers from the General Motor's Van Nuys operation to points all over the state. After delivery to the dealerships, the trailers would be taken back to the nearest ramp to await transport back to Van Nuys. If I recall correctly, SPs drayage arm handled final mile (road transport to dealership) operations.

Also, don't forget about the "Stac-Pak" system.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

AgentKid

That was the thing, those cars had only one end that opened. I do not understand how they loaded factory volumes of cars efficiently. It must have been an insane job.

Bruce

Apparently, they didn't, which explains how truckers got almost the entire finished automobile business before autoracks were developed.

I believe that luxury automobiles continued to be shipped in boxcars to be protected from the elements.  Similarly, I've observed that pricier automobiles are currently being hauled in enclosed semi-trailers.

[AgentKid]

That was the thing, those cars had only one end that opened. I do not understand how they loaded factory volumes of cars efficiently. It must have been an insane job.

Bruce

 

[Paul of Covington]

   About those end doors-- Did the boxcars have to be loaded individually, i.e. break up the train to back each car up to the ramp or loading dock, or were they able to drive the autos from one boxcar to the next as with modern auto racks?

[AgentKid]

CShaveRR

The cars lettered "Automobile" didn't necessarily have cushioning.  What they did have in common, though, were automobile loading devices.  A pair of cars would be driven in through the side doors onto the auto loaders, then pulled up and out of the way (using chains and pulleys) so that two more cars could be loaded beneath them.
 

That was always the way I understood how those cars worked. The end door cars I only ever heard about used those doors for loading only. The new cars always came out the side doors. That Shorpy photo surprised me when I saw it.

I understood that cars with end doors were in captive service to only certain factories equipped to deal with them. And it was a very old idea. I remember seeing CPR outside braced wood body autoboxes with double side doors and end doors. It wasn't just a steel box thing.

Bruce

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

chutton01

[snipped - PDN] . . . I recall an article, probably in RMC some years back (the Trains Magazine Index is failing me badly right now), about AMC autos (Ramblers IIRC) being transported on transporter truck trailers that rode TOFC on intermodal flats in the early 1960s - . . . 

I recall seeing a photo of that in Trains in the mid-1960's, most likely in the frequent "Would you believe . . . ?" photo page - which I believe is too 'small' to show up as a listing in the Magazine Index. 

- Paul North.   

[BaltACD]

tree68

Sam - A regular part of the parade of trains on the CSX Chicago Sub is the auto carriers.  As I understand it, these go to "mixing centers" from the factories.  From there, the vehicles go by truck to the dealers.

We used to have a large outfit here that brought cars across the border (Anchor Motor Freight) via truck.  They're long gone now.

 

Part right - from the factories to the Mixing Centers to aggregate rail car loads to regional distribution centers.  From the Distribution Centers the autos are 'short haul' trucked to the dealers.

CSX serves a number of Distribution Centers throughout their system.  Normal 'rack' trains are 90-95 railcar loads (or emptys on the return trains).

[LensCapOn]

Buick was putting their automobiles on flatcars with racks back in the teens or early 20's. So you might want to reconsider that "before" thing. (Maybe, "Before they got popular in the 60's"....)

[tree68]

Sam - A regular part of the parade of trains on the CSX Chicago Sub is the auto carriers.  As I understand it, these go to "mixing centers" from the factories.  From there, the vehicles go by truck to the dealers.

We used to have a large outfit here that brought cars across the border (Anchor Motor Freight) via truck.  They're long gone now.

[samfp1943]

In an interesting side note to the evolution of the Railroads transporting of automobiles and trucks (at least to someone who was in trucking).

I would mention that several of the larger truck transporter operatons have almost gone away.  Yellow auto Transporters that were part of Ryder Corp.(Complete A/T)and Jack Cooper, and Cowan(?)) seemed to be everywhere in route or unloading at dealers. They would run out of the auto manufacturing plants all through this midwest and southeastern US.

Now it seems to be accomplished by a number of independents and larger companies that utilize inclosed rigs to haul cars (like Swift, as one example) It seems the major transport operators have given away to independent truckers. Since we do not have a railroad car unloading operation here in Central Kansas. this seems to be the case(?)  The railroads seem to be hauling most of the long distance carriage of new cars. Can anyone add any info for their areas?

[Wizlish]

tree68

 

Paul of Covington

   Thanks, Balt.   I just went back and read the link provided by Paul North and realized that it referenced the Vert-a-pak.   And I was wrong about draining the fluids.  They were sealed or baffled to prvent leakage.

 

That was a significant part of the design of the Vega, from what I've read.

 

And the introduction of that awful Delco Freedom battery with no caps to replenish water...

[tree68]

Paul of Covington

   Thanks, Balt.   I just went back and read the link provided by Paul North and realized that it referenced the Vert-a-pak.   And I was wrong about draining the fluids.  They were sealed or baffled to prvent leakage.

That was a significant part of the design of the Vega, from what I've read.

[Paul of Covington]

   Thanks, Balt.   I just went back and read the link provided by Paul North and realized that it referenced the Vert-a-pak.   And I was wrong about draining the fluids.  They were sealed or baffled to prvent leakage.

[BaltACD]

Paul of Covington

   I remember reading about a small car model (may have been the Vega) where they experimented with standing them up vertically for shipment.  All fluids had to be drained first.   Apparently the experiment was not a success.

 

The Lordstown, OH plant was specifically constructed to build the Vega and the Vert-a-pac was the railcar for its transportation.

[chutton01]

Paul_D_North_Jr

tree68: Yep - see the first few photos/ diagrams on this webpage:

http://www.carlustblog.com/2012/11/factory-to-dealer-by-rail.html

- Paul North. 

Heh, that's the site where I got the images I linked to in my post above.

I recall an article, probably in RMC some years back (the Trains Magazine Index is failing me badly right now), about AMC autos (Ramblers IIRC) being transported on transporter truck trailers that rode TOFC on intermodal flats in the early 1960s - I believe at least one routing was from the plant in Kenosha, Wisconsin to the NYC Kingbridge Yard in Marble Hill, the Bronx (yeah, the yard was in the Bronx, the hill itself is in Manhattan), where the truck trailers were unloaded and the Ramblers distributed around the Tri-State area.

ETA - the auto-transporter mentioned in the previous post, in which the Chevy Vega were transported on end, was the Vert-a-pac. It came about in 1969, several years after the Tri-Level auto-rack had became commonplace on North American rails.

[Deggesty]

Paul of Covington

   I remember reading about a small car model (may have been the Vega) where they experimented with standing them up vertically for shipment.  All fluids had to be drained first.   Apparently the experiment was not a success.

 

I remember that, too, Paul. The invention of the autobile rack solved a lot ofproblems--especially after it was realized that the freight had to be protected from vandals.

[Paul of Covington]

   I remember reading about a small car model (may have been the Vega) where they experimented with standing them up vertically for shipment.  All fluids had to be drained first.   Apparently the experiment was not a success.

[CShaveRR]

The cars lettered "Automobile" didn't necessarily have cushioning.  What they did have in common, though, were automobile loading devices.  A pair of cars would be driven in through the side doors onto the auto loaders, then pulled up and out of the way (using chains and pulleys) so that two more cars could be loaded beneath them.

This was how it was done with 40-foot cars and 12-foot door openings.  Fifty-foot cars could handle at least one more car; end doors probably changed the configuration (they almost had to come out in reverse order from the way they went in).  

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

tree68: Yep - see the first few photos/ diagrams on this webpage:

http://www.carlustblog.com/2012/11/factory-to-dealer-by-rail.html

- Paul North. 

[tree68]

I was thinking that I'd seen something about auto boxcars that "parked" cars "diagonally" (vertically, not horizonally) so as to make more room (ie, \\\\).  I could be mistaken.

I can't tell you how many images I've seen of fire trucks being delivered on flat cars.  Nowadays they just drive 'em where they gotta go, in no small part to break them in.  Occasionally they'll get trucked on a flatbed.

[Andrew Falconer]

Lionel has had made in China, the O Scale models of 50' Boxcars with end doors that actually unlock and open.

[Firelock76]

In some of the old railroad promotional films available on DVD there's shots of crews man-handling autos out of the side doors of what on casual inpection would seem to be ordinary boxcars.  Looked like a real workout for those involved!

[awalker1829]

Actually, the boxcars used for automobile service had larger doors and better draft gear than the pool boxcars to protect their valuable contents. They were almost always marked AUTOMOBILE to warn the crews to handle the car with care.

[chutton01]

Well, before there were auto-racks, there were auto-loader systems installed inside of boxcars which more or less were bi-levels. However, AFAIK, they used conventional boxcars with side doors, not boxcars with end-door as shown in the OP's linked Shorpy image.

[BaltACD]

Not enought height in the cars to bi-level the load.