Trains.com

California Higher Speed - But is it Still Rail?

3221 views
38 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 1,486 posts
California Higher Speed - But is it Still Rail?
Posted by Victrola1 on Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:35 AM

 

LA To San Fran In 30 Minutes? Hyperloop CEO Says Speed Tube Could Become Reality

 

 

PLAYA VISTA (CBSLA.com) — It takes about six hours to drive from Los Angeles to San Francisco – depending on your speed – and more than an hour to fly.

But in the future, the trip may take a matter of minutes.

Designers of the speed tube called Hyperloop say they are one step closer to making that happen.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/12/17/la-to-san-fran-in-5-minutes-hyperloop-ceo-says-speed-tube-could-become-reality/

Surface, but no mention of flange on rail. Controlled nuclear fusion not mentioned. Solar powered. 

It sounds too good to be true. 

 

  • Member since
    October 2014
  • 1,644 posts
Posted by Wizlish on Thursday, December 18, 2014 2:28 PM

Victrola1
It sounds too good to be true...

"Only" 16 billion to connect LA and SF.  And now solar power is the technology supposed to be 'too cheap to meter.'  Unless I remember incorrectly, PRT at either end (at higher-yet infrastructure costs?)

Engineered by architecture students.

What could go wrong?

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,879 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Thursday, December 18, 2014 2:33 PM
LA to SF in 6 hours? There is no day nor time when that is possible....legally.
  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: US
  • 13,488 posts
Posted by Mookie on Thursday, December 18, 2014 3:22 PM

Wizlish
 
Victrola1
It sounds too good to be true...

 

"Only" 16 billion to connect LA and SF.  And now solar power is the technology supposed to be 'too cheap to meter.'  Unless I remember incorrectly, PRT at either end (at higher-yet infrastructure costs?)

Engineered by architecture students.

What could go wrong?

 

  Mischief

She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 1,486 posts
Posted by Victrola1 on Thursday, December 18, 2014 3:28 PM

Wizlish

 

 
Victrola1
It sounds too good to be true...

 

"Only" 16 billion to connect LA and SF.  And now solar power is the technology supposed to be 'too cheap to meter.'  Unless I remember incorrectly, PRT at either end (at higher-yet infrastructure costs?)

Engineered by architecture students.

What could go wrong?

 

The asthetic trumps the laws of Economics and Physics. 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Louisiana
  • 2,310 posts
Posted by Paul of Covington on Thursday, December 18, 2014 4:34 PM

   One thing to remember from the article:

  "'They look at this like a blank sheet of paper on which they can realize their fantasies,' UCLA professor Craig Hodgetts said."

    I thought I remembered a similar discussion some time ago & found it:

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/216301.aspx

_____________ 

  "A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, December 18, 2014 5:53 PM

Paul of Covington

   One thing to remember from the article:

  "'They look at this like a blank sheet of paper on which they can realize their fantasies,' UCLA professor Craig Hodgetts said."

    I thought I remembered a similar discussion some time ago & found it:

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/216301.aspx

 

Paul, I thought so. And, seeing who put this out for us the first time, I have no better opinion of it now than I did then. If you must get somewhere day before yesterday, it might be the way to go.

Johnny

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Thursday, December 18, 2014 7:29 PM

YoHo1975
LA to SF in 6 hours? There is no day nor time when that is possible....legally.
 

383 miles on the 5.  6 hours = average speed of 64 mph.  Driving at 70 mph is hardly impossible.   

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    October 2014
  • 1,139 posts
Posted by Gramp on Thursday, December 18, 2014 8:57 PM

Here's a different link.  More explanation.

http://www.wired.com/2014/12/jumpstartfund-hyperloop-elon-musk/

 

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: S.E. South Dakota
  • 13,569 posts
Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, December 18, 2014 10:32 PM

     I like ideas like this.  It gives me a chance to ponder some of the math.  At $60 billion to build, and $30 to ride, the first 533 million or so fares would be enough to just cost the construction cost, plus interest of course.

     The article says speeds up to 760 m.p.h.  Isn't that breaking the sound barrier?  To make the 383 mile trip in 30 minutes, you'd have to be going 760 m.p.h. for the entire distance.  Or, since the speed would be 0 m.p.h. at each end, I suppose you could go an average of 760 m.p.h., if you hit 1520 m.p.h. at the middle of the trip.

     You would think that anyone considering investing in this scheme would be better at math than the folks proposing it.  

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: S.E. South Dakota
  • 13,569 posts
Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, December 18, 2014 10:34 PM

schlimm

 

 
YoHo1975
LA to SF in 6 hours? There is no day nor time when that is possible....legally.
 

 

 

383 miles on the 5.  6 hours = average speed of 64 mph.  Driving at 70 mph is hardly impossible.   

 

  Possible, perhaps.  Is it legal?  What is the speed limit in California?

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Iowa
  • 3,293 posts
Posted by Semper Vaporo on Friday, December 19, 2014 1:13 AM

The question you posed in the subject line has me intrigued... if there is no rail then it it "rail".  I'd say no.  But then if it is a single vehicle... is it a "train".  I think maybe they are actually proposing a highspeed "BUS" that uses it own private "road".

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 19, 2014 11:07 AM

Wizlish
Engineered by architecture students. What could go wrong?

That caught my ears, too.  

It will look pretty!  At best, it won't run.  At worst, people die.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 19, 2014 11:09 AM

Murphy Siding
The article says speeds up to 760 m.p.h.  Isn't that breaking the sound barrier?

The tube is going to be mostly evacuated, so the speed of sound will be much higher.  (the lower the air density, the higher the speed of sound)

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    October 2012
  • 225 posts
Posted by DS4-4-1000 on Friday, December 19, 2014 11:21 AM

oltmannd
Murphy SidingThe article says speeds up to 760 m.p.h. Isn't that breaking the sound barrier? The tube is going to be mostly evacuated, so the speed of sound will be much higher. (the lower the air density, the higher the speed of sound)

The speed of sound in air is virtually independent of pressure.  It is much more dependent on temperature and humidity.  Look up speed of sound in Wiki.

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 19, 2014 11:55 AM

Murphy Siding
To make the 383 mile trip in 30 minutes, you'd have to be going 760 m.p.h. for the entire distance.  Or, since the speed would be 0 m.p.h. at each end, I suppose you could go an average of 760 m.p.h.

Depends on the acceleration rate.  Transit and trains count on no more than 0.1g (2-3 mph/sec).  If you're all strapped in, maybe you could do a half g or better or so in the tube - lets call it 15 mph/sec - Corvette performance.  It would take about a minute and 5 miles to get to 760 mph. So the total trip would be 31.5 minutes.

If you used 3 mph/sec, it would be four minutes and 25 miles to 760 mph.  Total trip time would be less than 35 minutes.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Friday, December 19, 2014 1:03 PM

http://www.wired.com/2014/12/jumpstartfund-hyperloop-elon-musk/

As to the 382 mile drive, Google Map says the time would be 5 hr 28 min. to 5 hr 44.  The speed limit varies, 65 - 70 mph.  The only time I ever drove it, it took 3 hours, 55 minutes, including a 15 minute stop.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 1,486 posts
Posted by Victrola1 on Friday, December 19, 2014 1:13 PM

The group is still a long way from actually producing a working Hyperloop, but it's already made serious progress on how an eventual system might look. The group envisions three classes — economy, business and freight — with dozens of possible routes across the US. The group is also looking into improvements on the initial design. "In the initial white paper, air has the advantage that it's cheap, but it also has problems with control," says CEO Dirk Ahlborn. If another medium performs better in testing, it will be easy to switch. After initial financial projections, the cost for the trans-California route is expected to fall between $7 and $16 billion — a good deal higher than Musk's initial estimate of $6 billion, but still a bargain compared to existing rail projects. "The biggest thing for me is the price," says Ahlborn. "We know it's not going to cost $50 billion — we know we're in a range that works."

http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/18/7418387/the-slow-humble-return-of-the-hyperloop

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: S.E. South Dakota
  • 13,569 posts
Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, December 19, 2014 1:24 PM

schlimm

http://www.wired.com/2014/12/jumpstartfund-hyperloop-elon-musk/

As to the 382 mile drive, Google Map says the time would be 5 hr 28 min. to 5 hr 44.  The speed limit varies, 65 - 70 mph.  The only time I ever drove it, it took 3 hours, 55 minutes, including a 15 minute stop.

 

  382 miles in 220 minutes is 1.737 miles per minute, or 104.22 m.p.h. !That's 104.22 m.p.h. average, not taking into account acceleration, deceleration, and the speed of sound / air density factors. Mischief

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 1,486 posts
Posted by Victrola1 on Friday, December 19, 2014 1:39 PM

LA TIMES, JUNE 11, 1972
BEGIN ARTICLE QUOTE"

"L.A. to N.Y. in Half an Hour?
10,000 - M.P.H. Tunnel Train Plan Developed  

http://www.reptoids.com/Vault/Underground/LA2NYnHalfnHour.htm

This sounds much faster. 

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Toronto, Canada
  • 2,560 posts
Posted by 54light15 on Friday, December 19, 2014 2:07 PM

I dunno, I kind of like the idea of a supersonic bus. Really, what could go wrong? But there was a movie where a bus had to keep it's speed above 50, if it's speed dropped below 50 it would explode! I think the movie was called "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 19, 2014 2:09 PM

54light15

I dunno, I kind of like the idea of a supersonic bus. Really, what could go wrong? But there was a movie where a bus had to keep it's speed above 50, if it dropped below 50 it would explode! I think the movie was called "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

 

The movie was "Speed".  

And then there's this: HSB

 

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 19, 2014 2:12 PM

Victrola1

LA TIMES, JUNE 11, 1972
BEGIN ARTICLE QUOTE"

"L.A. to N.Y. in Half an Hour?
10,000 - M.P.H. Tunnel Train Plan Developed  

http://www.reptoids.com/Vault/Underground/LA2NYnHalfnHour.htm

This sounds much faster. 

 

There's a section in there "Breaking Generates Power" .  Ouch!

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Friday, December 19, 2014 2:14 PM

Victrola1

LA TIMES, JUNE 11, 1972
BEGIN ARTICLE QUOTE"

"L.A. to N.Y. in Half an Hour?
10,000 - M.P.H. Tunnel Train Plan Developed  

http://www.reptoids.com/Vault/Underground/LA2NYnHalfnHour.htm

This sounds much faster. 

 

Quite interesting. But, I wonder what is broken to return power to the system--"Breaking Generates Power."

Did trolley cars use regenerative breaking?

Johnny

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: S.E. South Dakota
  • 13,569 posts
Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, December 19, 2014 3:48 PM

Victrola1

LA TIMES, JUNE 11, 1972
BEGIN ARTICLE QUOTE"

"L.A. to N.Y. in Half an Hour?
10,000 - M.P.H. Tunnel Train Plan Developed  

http://www.reptoids.com/Vault/Underground/LA2NYnHalfnHour.htm

This sounds much faster. 

 

  Holy cow Batman!  That transcontinental adventure will carry 7 to 8 million tons of freight per day, in addition to passengers!  If that much freight was on a freight train it would be- what? 70,000 cars at 60(?) feet long equals 795 miles of freight cars, plus another 40 miles of locomotives.

     Of course, that would be split, half going east, half going west.  The article says that trains would leave at one minute intervals.  There are 1440 minutes in a day.   835 miles of train, divided in half is 2,204,400 feet of trains.  Divide that by 1440 minutes, and you have a 1531 foot long train departing every 60 seconds.  You also have a 1531 foot long train arriving every 60 seconds. 

     The yard facilities at each end would be impressive, especially once you take into consideration that the freight and/or people have to be moved to/from a different form of transportation at the end points. 

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
  • 13,757 posts
Posted by cacole on Friday, December 19, 2014 3:57 PM

But how many years and trillions of dollars would it cost to build such a system?  Tunneling under the Mississippi and other major waterways, and the Rocky Mountains?

 

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Iowa
  • 3,293 posts
Posted by Semper Vaporo on Friday, December 19, 2014 4:43 PM

oltmannd
 
Victrola1

LA TIMES, JUNE 11, 1972
BEGIN ARTICLE QUOTE"

"L.A. to N.Y. in Half an Hour?
10,000 - M.P.H. Tunnel Train Plan Developed  

http://www.reptoids.com/Vault/Underground/LA2NYnHalfnHour.htm

This sounds much faster.  

There's a section in there "Breaking Generates Power" .  Ouch!

 

I could almost understand it if it were "regenerative BRAKING", but how to you generate power from "BREAKING" the train?  Maybe they are spliting an atom or two in the process of BREAKING the train?

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Friday, December 19, 2014 5:18 PM

Semper Vaporo
 
oltmannd
 
Victrola1

LA TIMES, JUNE 11, 1972
BEGIN ARTICLE QUOTE"

"L.A. to N.Y. in Half an Hour?
10,000 - M.P.H. Tunnel Train Plan Developed  

http://www.reptoids.com/Vault/Underground/LA2NYnHalfnHour.htm

This sounds much faster.  

There's a section in there "Breaking Generates Power" .  Ouch!

 

 

 

I could almost understand it if it were "regenerative BRAKING", but how to you generate power from "BREAKING" the train?  Maybe they are spliting an atom or two in the process of BREAKING the train?

 

The sad thing is that this was written forty-two years ago--back when a high school graduate should have known the difference between "brake" and "break."

Johnny

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Friday, December 19, 2014 7:29 PM

Murphy Siding
382 miles in 220 minutes is 1.737 miles per minute, or 104.22 m.p.h. !That's 104.22 m.p.h. average, not taking into account acceleration, deceleration, and the speed of sound / air density factors

Many trains (hourly, as I recall) run non-stop from Hamburg to the Berlin Spandau station: 178 miles in 90 minutes, 118 mph.  No big deal on a modern system.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Friday, December 19, 2014 7:56 PM

Murphy Siding
382 miles in 220 minutes is 1.737 miles per minute, or 104.22 m.p.h.

That's interesting.  But have you noticed that, unless you are using some very unusual conversion factor, your "220 minutes" are not equal to the 5hr 28min to 5hr 44min that schlimm quoted?

The lower time figure works out to just what I'd expect: call it 70mph within the bounds of rounding errors. 

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy