I just thought it would be fun to play this one out? The way the North American Rail Grid was set up today seems largely influenced by major corporate Powers, for instance: UP and Burlington Northern, with a failing Southern Pacific sold to UP by Anschutz, and Burlington Norhtern Acquiring ATSF.
However, just for the sake of discussion, what do you all think North American Railroading would look like if the ICC had allowed Southern Pacific and Santa Fe to merge? Would it last, what would happen to the DRGW, to UP? etc.
The Beaverton, Fanno Creek & Bull Mountain Railroad
"Ruby Line Service"
Was the ATSF and BN not a merger? I mean, ATSF corporate took over. Anyway. The ATSF/SP merger was always problematic to me, because there was so much redundant track and a lot of pieces would have been of questionable value. For example, they likely would have had to shed a lot of track in Texas and Ca. The Transcon and the the Sunset don't pose any question, but what's the value of Donner? You'd have almost needed to buy up the Rock and DRGW just to make Donner have any value at all.
The second SPSF merger attempt included leasing SP's Donner and Modoc routes to D&RGW, along with trackage rights from Klamath Falls to Portland, and from Roseville to Oakland and Bakersfield.
UP had already put forward it's takeover of the Missouri Kansas Texas and would have acquired the C&NW when the time was right.
Burlington Northern would have been the weakest of the big 3 western roads, I think it is likely they would have gone after KCS to catch up.
Reagan was trying to sell Conrail at that time, a SPSF bid would have been welcomed more than Norfolk Southern's.
SPSF would have weakened the Santa Fe probably to the point where it had to seek another merger. SP lines at the time were in pretty bad shape as I remember them............only the Union Pacific had deep enough pockets and the traffic levels to justify buying the SP. As it is now as BNSF, a lot of former Santa Fe lines have been sold, are being shed or considered for abandonment including parts of the Amtrak Southwest Chief route. They sold a large chunk in Texas including the Dallas cutoff that was built for the Texas Chief that took the train from just North of Fort Worth over to entry into Dallas from the East at Garland, TX.
That Texas Chief line alone cost a lot to construct for just passenger trains.....think they built it in the 1950's. Still in use today but by KCS largely as a way to expedite freight to the West from the Southeast.
YoHo1975 Was the ATSF and BN not a merger? I mean, ATSF corporate took over.
Was the ATSF and BN not a merger? I mean, ATSF corporate took over.
I thought that BN bought out the Santa Fe? And I thought that the Santa Fe was a pretty powerful Railroad.
KBCpresident YoHo1975 Was the ATSF and BN not a merger? I mean, ATSF corporate took over. I thought that BN bought out the Santa Fe? And I thought that the Santa Fe was a pretty powerful Railroad.
At the time of Merger. BN's main business was Coal and ATSF was Intermodal. At the time Intermodal was only marginally profitable but ATSF was finding ways to sell it at premium rates using the Super Chief brand and faster speeds...........which interested BN. Hence this is why they merged primarily. They were true compliments even though they both ran from Chicago to the West Coast. ATSF was the weaker and smaller road in the merger with BN. On the takeover vs merger discussion. Point of view as one management structure has to take over the other the last attempt to blend the best of both management styles was the Penn Central and no railroad wants to repeat that again with the two former railroads competing within a single railroad entity to see who wins.
Thus, in my humble opinion, no modern railroad merger is actually a merger per se but an agreed upon takeover of one by the other.
Uncle JakeOver what time period was the spsf merger attempted?
From Wikipedia:
In the 1980s, The Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway (SF) and Southern Pacific Transportation Company (SP) attempted a merger. It began with the merger ofholding companies Santa Fe Industries and Southern Pacific Company on December 23, 1983 to form the Santa Fe Southern Pacific Corporation (SFSP), which held the SP shares in a voting trust. After the Interstate Commerce Commission denied the merger, SFSP sold the SP to Rio Grande Industries on October 13, 1988, and was renamed Santa Fe Pacific Corporation on April 25, 1989....
"Shouldn't Paint So Fast" was the nickname
M636C
Right, BN bought out the Santa Fe Shares, but Santa Fe Mgmt took over. It was a merger of equals in other words, but legally BN bought them out.
Didn't the same happen with BN and the Frisco? BN bought the Frisco and then Frisco Management took over (I know some people who were employees in the pacNW that blame Frisco MGMT's ignorance of Mountain railroading for some of the less than great decisions made at the time period.
Yes, BN was the more profitable railroad, but Santa Fe had Rob Krebs.
Thus, it was pretty much a merger of equals.
Ed
https://www.facebook.com/spsfrailway
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
DSchmitt https://www.facebook.com/spsfrailway
I've always thought that the SPSF merger would have been too parallel for it's own good,given that they competed head-to-head throughout much of the Southwest it would have meant a loss of competition. It reminded me of Penn Central in that regard, but with even less competition.
The Western mergers that did happen seemed much better balanced as far as preserving competition will building on the respective strengths of the railroads involved.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
very interesting post. I didn't know after BN took Frisco over that they used Frisco mgmt to take over, they would not have been good choices for mountain routes, because they had no experience with that type of railroading. Then I read about Bill Thompson from the Frisco running things for BN in a Trains article and that was a surprise to me. Dad was dead by the time BN took over, so we didn't really get much news as to what was happening.
Have ridden on old SP trains and routes, so I'm familiar with their territory, but never rode Santa Fe, but sounds like there would have been duplication in some areas.
CMStPnP ... the last attempt to blend the best of both management styles was the Penn Central and no railroad wants to repeat that again with the two former railroads competing within a single railroad entity to see who wins.
I survived NYC+PRR-->PC as a very, very junior member of management and need to correct the quoted statement a little bit.
It wouldn't have been so bad if we had, as you suggested, blended "the best of both management styles". Instead, what we did was start at the very top with Chairman Saunders (former PRR and thus 'Red'), President Perlman (former NYC and thus 'Green'), and arbitrarily alternated Red and Green personnel throughout the rest of the management hierarchy. Making matters worse, all new assignments, most involving physical relocation, took effect on the effective date of the merger - 1/1/68. And the further down the chain you were, the less notice you had of your new assignment.
A case in point was Richmond, IN where I was assigned as of merger day. The Trainmaster was Green (as I was) while the Assistant Trainmaster was Red. These two were also newly assigned to Richmond as of merger day. Being a former PRR location, all non-management people were Red.
The Red Assistant Trainmaster was truly essential. The TM and I could just barely have an intelligent conversation with other operating people without the Asst TM there to translate.
Here we had two railroads trying to operate as one after having spent more than 100 years doing things differently just to be different from the other road. We even had such different vocabularies that we couldn't agree whether it was a caboose or a cabin car. It was truly a train wreck looking for a time to happen (pardon the stretched analogy.)
Your assessment that no other railroad would want to repeat our experience is, however, spot on. I always thought BN studied PC and thereby learned how not to merge two railroads.
ChuckAllen, TX
M636C Uncle Jake Over what time period was the spsf merger attempted? From Wikipedia: In the 1980s, The Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway (SF) and Southern Pacific Transportation Company (SP) attempted a merger. It began with the merger ofholding companies Santa Fe Industries and Southern Pacific Company on December 23, 1983 to form the Santa Fe Southern Pacific Corporation (SFSP), which held the SP shares in a voting trust. After the Interstate Commerce Commission denied the merger, SFSP sold the SP to Rio Grande Industries on October 13, 1988, and was renamed Santa Fe Pacific Corporation on April 25, 1989.... "Shouldn't Paint So Fast" was the nickname M636C
Uncle Jake Over what time period was the spsf merger attempted?
Yes, but I really liked their paint scheme.
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