Could railroads take more traffic off I-95 or I-81?

[GP-9_Man11786]

Which of the two Interstate corridors I-95 or I-81 could railroads make the most difference (thank traffic reduction)? They both run roughly parallel to each other but carry a somewhat different mix of traffic. I-95 carries a lot of long haul track, a lot of vacationers headed to Florida and business travelers in the northeast. I-81 is by and large a major truck route but is becoming an increasingly popular route (along with I-77 and I-26) for those looking to avoid 95 on the way to Florida.

If Norfolk Southern's actions with the Crescent Corridor lead me to believe the railroads think they can get more business in the 81 corridor.

[ndbprr]

Sure but good luck making people do it.

[Ulrich]

I'd say both lanes work well for rail. The I-95 might be especially attractive due to the wide  imbalance of freight in that lane. There's alot more northbound into NY, NJ, PA  and New England than those states export out. Thus rates going north are quite high generally. Shippers are looking for options to bring that cost down, and rail is looking better every day. 

[BaltACD]

The impediment to the I-95 corridor for rail traffic is clearances.  The clearances do not permit double stacks on any route.  CSX's Gateway project when completed, will permit double stacks from the Norfolk/Portsmouth area to the West via the improved Virginia Avenue Tunnel in DC.  That leaves the Howard Street Tunnel in Baltimore as the bottleneck; additionally the CSX line between Philadelphia & Baltimore is already at maximum capacity for it's present track configuration. 

[henry6]

What is not noticed is how the east coast actually is "curved" from southwest to northeast and that Tallahassee, FL is south of Lansing, MI and Jacksonville is south of Erie, PA. Miami is south of Baltimore but there are big stretches of water. And south of Philadelphia or anything else "downeast" from there is all water. Washington DC is directly south of Elmira, NY. With that in perspective, railroads can compete with either highway north and south, east and west, with CSX, NS and CP taking all to and from New England no matter which interstate highway corridor you choose. It is why CSX is doing a land office business in the area, why NS is partnering with (taking over) Pan AM into NE, and why CP keeps hanging on hoping something will gel for them.

[blue streak 1]

BaltACD

The impediment to the I-95 corridor for rail traffic is clearances.  The clearances do not permit double stacks on any route.  CSX's Gateway project when completed, will permit double stacks from the Norfolk/Portsmouth area to the West via the improved Virginia Avenue Tunnel in DC.  That leaves the Howard Street Tunnel in Baltimore as the bottleneck; additionally the CSX line between Philadelphia & Baltimore is already at maximum capacity for it's present track configuration. 

The north south clearances on CSX are going to take some time to eliminate. Virginia avenue tunnels appear to be a 36 - 42 month construction cycle. CSX DC - Baltimore would need one or two tracks restored to increase traffic fluidity. The Howard street tunnel is a disaster waiting to happen. Maybe the Amtrak B & P tunnel replacement would have some work involved to mitigate the Howard street tunnel?. Further northbound are there any double stack impediments to the Newark area ? NS on the I-81 corridor has its own problems. The N&W line from Hagerstown - Roanoke is not a 70 MPH line that will take much work to change it to 70. Roanoke - Bristol can be made double track but there is still a couple significant grades that need changing. Bristol - Bulls Gap - Knoxville is a real mess. Many 30 MPH sections, Parallel street running in Johnson City, Would be very expensive to double track thru Jonesboro and the need to straighten track. NIMBYs will have a field day. Then thru to Bulls Gap much straightening and difficult to double track. All in all CSX & NS will have to concentrate most resources to their respective routes along the northern tier.

[Ulrich]

There's alot of freight that doesn't require additional clearances that could be converted to rail quite easily, without any changes to the infrastructure. Alot of steel moves north from NC and SC presently... most of it goes by truck now.

[tree68]

There is a fair amount of truck traffic on I-81 in and out of Canada (crossing at the Thousand Islands Bridge).  In theory, it might be possible to "Auto-Train" some of that traffic (as I believe they do in the "Chunnel"), except that the CSX line that parallels I-81 (St Lawrence Sub) ends at Syracuse, and there's no easy way to continue south.

The Susquehanna parallels I-81 south of Syracuse, but the interchange would be less than graceful, methinks, and the SuzieQ's southward journey ends roughly at Binghampton, where an interchange with CP(?) would be necessary to reach Scranton...

[henry6]

CSX could bring Candadian traffic to Syracuse and take it west and then south if it wished. It could hand it off to the NYSW to take to Binghamton and NS or CP to carry further. Or it could take it west and give it to the line BRP (?) near Rochester to take to Pittsburg. OR CP and NS could increase service from Montreal to Binghamton and south. Remember what I pointed out that New England and a lot of Canada are further east than points in Florida so CSX moving traffic west from Syracuse before turning south is not out of the way. Any traffic is possible if a railroad wants it enough and does what is needed to make it happen and to make a profit.

[Ulrich]

CN or CP to Montreal and then Montreal to the US via CSX.    

[MidlandMike]

NS's map of the Crescent Corridor shows it to split, and one leg follows I-85 as much as the other leg follows I-81.  At the north end it follows CP to Mechanicville.

http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/ship-with-norfolk-southern/shipping-options/corridors/crescent-corridor.html

[mackb4]

 The NS is expecting a very large amount of traffic to go from road to rail when the Crescent Corridor is completed.It will also have traffic from the Heartland Corridor flow into it making it more viable.

  I think with the opening of the expanded Panama Canal will be overflowing and this will be the answer that the roads won't be able to handle.

 Also the cost effectiveness of transporting on rail rather than truck will be the overall factor for business.

    

[greyhounds]

Ulrich

There's alot of freight that doesn't require additional clearances that could be converted to rail quite easily, without any changes to the infrastructure. Alot of steel moves north from NC and SC presently... most of it goes by truck now.

I believe you are correct.

And I also believe that CSX and NS simply do no know about that freight.  Market research is a real hole in the boat for the railroads.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

I believe NS has laid a major bet on the Crescent Corridor's routes, particularly 'selling' the taking trucks off I-81 in Virginia.  Some of the pieces are in place now (some only in the last 2 - 3 years), but my 'outsider' sense is that there's a good 10 years and a few $ Billion of infrastructure improvements to get it to where it will be truly truck-competitive, mainly due to the geography and location challenges noted by others above. 

CSX is physically more parallel to I-95, but also has capacity and clearance limitations as also noted above.

In practical terms, for long-haul truck traffic either rail route could be competitive, 'depending'.

For passengers, Amtrak's route over CSX is best.  When the "A line" is rebuilt in southern VA / northern NC and a lot of improvements put in place, a huge volume of cars could be taken off I-95 (which is a rolling traffic jam at certain times of the year).

- Paul North.    

[oltmannd]

greyhounds

Ulrich

There's alot of freight that doesn't require additional clearances that could be converted to rail quite easily, without any changes to the infrastructure. Alot of steel moves north from NC and SC presently... most of it goes by truck now.

I believe you are correct.

And I also believe that CSX and NS simply do no know about that freight.  Market research is a real hole in the boat for the railroads.

I believe NS has a lot beneficial owner info about truckload freight moving in the corridor.  They used it to help size and locate terminals on the corridor - for starters.

The problem with the route is it's still a bit too slow and consumes too many crews.  980 miles from Harrisburg to Memphis takes 37 hours and 7 crews.  900 miles NJ to Chicago takes 27 hours and 4 crews.  There is some work to do, still.

[aricat]

I have always found it amazing that the I-81 corridor was never a major rail route. How much rail traffic was carried and interchanged through Hagerstown by N&W and the Pennsylvania anyway?

When the US highways were established in 1926 US 11 ran from upstate New York to New Orleans. Most US highways run either north and south or east and west not diagonally. Interstate 81 parallels US 11 from Harrisburg to Knoxville. Even before World War II US 11 was an important trucking corridor and became much more important since World War II. Today it is one of the most important trucking corridors in the United States. Why didn't Southern and N&W exploit this after World War II? The trucking industry sure did!

[henry6]

US 11 parallels I81 from Upstate NY to Knoxville. And the corridor has always been a major freight corridor for both rail and highway freight. Concerned here with rail, the NYC shadowed the route in Upstate NY and in effect into PA via Corning, NY and Jersey Shore and Newberry PA. It also connected with the DL&W at Syracuse which carried on to Northumberland, PA and handed off traffic to the PRR to continue south. There were several alternate routes available, too, including the PRR from Syracuse to Southport (Elmira), NY (6mos PRR crew, NYC power and caboose, 6 most NYC crew PRR power and caboose); NYC branches to Utica to DL&W south to Binghamton; NYC to Schenectady to D&H to Wilkes Barre, PA and PRR south from there. The NYC route from Massina remains under CSX and the DL&W connection from Syracuse is NYSW today which delivers to CP and NS at Binghamton to take south. There has always been a lot of Canadian traffic on these assorted routes. NYC-PC into CR had an aluminum ore train up from VA through PA and the Grand Canyon to Corning, NY to Lyons to Syracuse to Massina's ALCOA plant. But, yes, there could be more rail use if the traffic warrented.

[oltmannd]

aricat

How much rail traffic was carried and interchanged through Hagerstown by N&W and the Pennsylvania anyway?

Not much.  North-south traffic moved through Pot Yard back in that era - lots of it.  

April 1,1976 and Jan 4, 1987 changed all that.

[henry6]

oltmannd

aricat

How much rail traffic was carried and interchanged through Hagerstown by N&W and the Pennsylvania anyway?

Not much.  North-south traffic moved through Pot Yard back in that era - lots of it.  

April 1,1976 and Jan 4, 1987 changed all that.

But there are larger trains and train cars, today, and more unit or dedicated trains, longer trains, trains made up or blocked so as not to need Pot Yard or other yards. So much changes in railroading almost annually so that you can't use 5, 10, 25 or 50 year old practices as being pertinent.

[Ulrich]

Trucks rates (going  north along I95 especially)  have really shot up over the last eight to 12 months. Shippers must be looking for alternatives.. they just have to be. What's really nice about that lane too is that very few expect  overnight service... in fact most of the people I deal with don't want immediate delivery. That's great for rail because one week or even two week transit times wouldn't be that much of a big deal. I work  with about 30 receivers north of Baltimore along I95. When I get service failures its almost always for delivering too soon. This is probably because inventory space is at a premium in the Northeast. Receivers put their orders in well in advance, but as much as possible they try to have their suppliers in the South store the material until it is needed. Here again, the rails could provide a valuable service by moving the material out of the south and maintaining it in transit until the receiver needs it.

Many of us in the trucking industry are short sighted: we see these high rates as only a good thing. I don't see it that way.  High rates always invite change and competition. This is a huge opportunity for rail to make significant inroads.

 

[GP-9_Man11786]

For a trucker headed from Miami to Boston, I could see advantages to either route. I-95 is shorter distance-wise. However, it's congested, passes through major cities and, north of DC has many tolls. Going north, a trucker would have to pay $24 for the Fort McHenry Tunnel, then $60 for the JFK Highway, $30 for the Delaware Memorial Bridge, $26 for the Jersey Turnpike, $65 for the George Washington Bridge and $9.26 for the New England Thruway. 

While take I-95 to I-26 to I-77 to I-81 to I-84 to the Mass Pike is a longer distance, it avoids DC, Baltimore and NYC. The only tolls encountered would be the Newburg - Beacon Bridge and the Mass Pike. In terms of rates, it would probably be a wash between the two as whatever is saved on tolls would be spent on fuel.

[schlimm]

Ulrich

Trucks rates (going  north along I95 especially)  have really shot up over the last eight to 12 months. Shippers must be looking for alternatives.. they just have to be. What's really nice about that lane too is that very few expect  overnight service... in fact most of the people I deal with don't want immediate delivery. That's great for rail because one week or even two week transit times wouldn't be that much of a big deal. I work  with about 30 receivers north of Baltimore along I95. When I get service failures its almost always for delivering too soon. This is probably because inventory space is at a premium in the Northeast. Receivers put their orders in well in advance, but as much as possible they try to have their suppliers in the South store the material until it is needed. Here again, the rails could provide a valuable service by moving the material out of the south and maintaining it in transit until the receiver needs it.

Many of us in the trucking industry are short sighted: we see these high rates as only a good thing. I don't see it that way.  High rates always invite change and competition. This is a huge opportunity for rail to make significant inroads.

 

Given all that you see, one would think there could be a lot of freight that the rails could pick up, business that pays well, too.

[henry6]

But you also must take into account what space is left on the railroads for additional traffic. Single track railroads, signaled and unsignaled, yards and lack of yards, and the number of qualified and practicing employees. These are all things they just may be holding back the railroads from being able to go after more or new business. So the decision is how much investment is needed not to attract more business but to accommodate more business...investment in both infrastructure and labor?

[oltmannd]

There used to be plenty of north-south traffic.  It flowed through Pot Yard.  The PRR got the short end of the revenue stick, but didn't care.  The southern roads needed it.  The PRR didn't.

Conrail occurred.  The cost to move traffic on the NEC went up.  Conrail used the NEC as little as possible.  Conrail "demarketed" as much N-S traffic as possible.  They moved most of the remaining traffic over to Hagerstown.  NS had the weedy, seedy low capacity N&W route toward Roanoke and the unsignalled "S" line branch to Manassas.  It was good enough.  

There was a push to improve capacity on the Hagerstown route.  Conrail installed CTC on their part and raised speeds from 25 to 40.  A couple intermodal trains got started.  After the NS merger, the S line got CTC, the N&W to Roanoke was improved some, too.  The ex-Conrail part got another speed bump, too.

The Crescent Corridor in part restores the capacity that used to exist through Pot Yard.

There's plenty of traffic to go get, and a plan to go get it!

[BaltACD]

oltmannd

There used to be plenty of north-south traffic.  It flowed through Pot Yard.  The PRR got the short end of the revenue stick, but didn't care.  The southern roads needed it.  The PRR didn't.

Conrail occurred.  The cost to move traffic on the NEC went up.  Conrail used the NEC as little as possible.  Conrail "demarketed" as much N-S traffic as possible.  They moved most of the remaining traffic over to Hagerstown.  NS had the weedy, seedy low capacity N&W route toward Roanoke and the unsignalled "S" line branch to Manassas.  It was good enough.  

There was a push to improve capacity on the Hagerstown route.  Conrail installed CTC on their part and raised speeds from 25 to 40.  A couple intermodal trains got started.  After the NS merger, the S line got CTC, the N&W to Roanoke was improved some, too.  The ex-Conrail part got another speed bump, too.

The Crescent Corridor in part restores the capacity that used to exist through Pot Yard.

There's plenty of traffic to go get, and a plan to go get it!

ConRail routed their 'Pot Yard' traffic over the B&O after Amtrak got the NEC and basically prohibited through freight traffic on the NEC.  Once CSX was formed as a operating entity, the need for Pot Yard ended and it was closed and turned into real estate.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

More info on the NS Crescent Corridor Route, which I didn't have time to find early this morning:

Limited article, just an overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent_Corridor 

AAR's webpage on it, though with even less content: http://freightrailworks.org/partners/crescent-corridor/ 

NS used to have a dedicated website called "The Future Needs Us" ("TheFutureNeedsUs.com") as the vehicle for its public-private partnership PR effort, but it seems to be "Not Available" lately.  However, here's a link to a remnant, an 8-page brochure from 2009 (approx. 5 MB electronic file size) - note the state-by-state breakdown on page 6 of 8, and the "horse-p-p-power" on the front cover:

http://www.thefutureneedsus.com/images/uploads/crescent-corridor-brochure_1.pdf 

- Paul North. 

[dmikee]

When railroads are consolidating and just upgrading from 1930's standards to the modern age, and even more are barely surviving, there is little time or motivation for improvements and innovations. Meanwhile, European and Australian railroads haul everything, everywhere, using smaller containers and easy on/easy off loading/unloading systems so only small local trucks are needed to take a container to a shipper or destination merchant. In Britain, most "goods trains" run at night, making room for the heavy passenger traffic each day. Much of our single track county could double-tracked to substantially reduce wait time "in the hole" for both freights and passenger trains. And we overlook consistently the full trains handling millions of inter-city commuters each day around our major employment hubs. Reconnect some of the short haul inter-city services with high speed rail and enormous relief to car traffic will be possible.

[oltmannd]

BaltACD

oltmannd

There used to be plenty of north-south traffic.  It flowed through Pot Yard.  The PRR got the short end of the revenue stick, but didn't care.  The southern roads needed it.  The PRR didn't.

Conrail occurred.  The cost to move traffic on the NEC went up.  Conrail used the NEC as little as possible.  Conrail "demarketed" as much N-S traffic as possible.  They moved most of the remaining traffic over to Hagerstown.  NS had the weedy, seedy low capacity N&W route toward Roanoke and the unsignalled "S" line branch to Manassas.  It was good enough.  

There was a push to improve capacity on the Hagerstown route.  Conrail installed CTC on their part and raised speeds from 25 to 40.  A couple intermodal trains got started.  After the NS merger, the S line got CTC, the N&W to Roanoke was improved some, too.  The ex-Conrail part got another speed bump, too.

The Crescent Corridor in part restores the capacity that used to exist through Pot Yard.

There's plenty of traffic to go get, and a plan to go get it!

ConRail routed their 'Pot Yard' traffic over the B&O after Amtrak got the NEC and basically prohibited through freight traffic on the NEC.  Once CSX was formed as a operating entity, the need for Pot Yard ended and it was closed and turned into real estate.

Conrail got a couple slots a day.  I believe the OJT and a daily pair of Merch trains.  TV175/176 had been going that way for a while.