This is not a thread about the railroad travelers of old, with their belongings in a knapsack on a pole. Our forum hosts ask that we do not talk about those guys. I picked up an interesting railroad book at a rummage sale. I won't mention the title. It's interesting because the author seems to know a lot of detail about how railroads, and especially rail yards operate. It's hard to tell if the author knows, or is just a convincing writer. One of the major themes of this fella's book, is that your average railroad employee doesn't mind having non-revenue railroad passengers on their freight trains, as long as they don't mess with anything. He paints those travelers as being modern day *adventurers*, boldly seeing this great land of ours by rail car. He asserts that most of the railroad employees are friendly to *travelers*, *like* having these folks around, as they are like having an extra set of eyes to watch for the boogeyman. In a way, he's also saying that the railroad employees tolerate the *travelers*, knowing that they're somehow getting away with something, at the expense of the the *big, mean railroads*. Now, everything I've read here, and in magazines and books, leads me to believe that the author of this unnamed book may just be printing wishful thinking. Is there any wieight to his point of view, or is he full of it, and full of himself?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I guess I'm not an average railroader. I don't like people around the trains unless they are people I know and trust. I certainly don't want anyone riding my train unless they are in the locomotive cab.
I've seen too many bodies..
HOLY COW! Murphy S...
We may have to call you " Blade Runner" .. You are sure tap dancing on a razor blade with this Thread !
Love your Chutzpah !
I was going to start a Thread on the " Mexican Death Trains ( and the one that just derailed and dumped all those kids) who were riding it..into the good ole USA" But I figured that would probably get me barred for life, and Kalmbach would send back my renewal, and not let me subscribe any more..
Thoroughly enjoy your posts, Norris!
That attitude has varied throughout history. Originally, “non-revenue” passengers were actually producing revenue as an off-the-books compensation bonus to trainmen, almost like a tip. There were standard informally established rates for traveling a division. Trainmen enforced this required payment. They kept the money, and management acquiesced.
It is my understanding that this informal payment system had died off by the time of the massive increase in non-revenue riding during the depression. I don’t know what the enforcement against non-revenue riding was like back in that era. But, I would say that the casual, friendly accommodation your book refers to did indeed exist from the 1970s onward, but has disappeared since 911.
Can you tell us more about the book and the author?
In today's world my carrier invokes a 3 word thought on all employees
RecognizeRecordReport
See something out of the ordinary (ie. non-revenue passenger); record the specifics of the observation; report the specifics to company authorities (which is the company's police communication center). With the terrorists threats in today's world you can't take any trespasser for granted.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Back when I lived in BC in the 80s I often travelled from my home in the Interior to the Coast by train. I would get permission from the yardmaster in Kamloops, and he would ok me to ride. The crews and employees I encountered were always friendly and accommodating to a fault. On one occasion some big brass was visiting Kamloops from HQ in Montreal, and I was told to lay low until they were out of sight. I usually rode in the lead unit with the crew. What a great bunch of guys they were...
BaltACDWith the terrorists threats in today's world you can't take any trespasser for granted.
I have heard that terrorists are posing as graffiti artists, so nobody will suspect them.
Euclid BaltACDWith the terrorists threats in today's world you can't take any trespasser for granted. I have heard that terrorists are posing as graffiti artists, so nobody will suspect them.
When observed 'spray can artists' get reported!
When a non-revenue passenger is *de-trained* by railroad personal, what usually comes next?
Here's a twist on non-revenue riders/passengers:
By May of 1932 the misery of mass unemployment in Cleveland, and elsewhere of course, was enough that very many young veterans descended on Washington DC as part of the famous Bonus Army. There were so many men hopping Pennsylvania RR freights eastward from Cleveland that the railroad actually ran at least one train for them, without charging a fare! This story was told to me by one who lived near the PRR yards and I have read it in at least one place. Still, I wonder: Can anyone verify this story?
Imagine how many men must have been doing this, and being injured, etc., that the PRR would resort to a special train.
Murphy Siding When a non-revenue passenger is *de-trained* by railroad personal, what usually comes next?
On my carrier, if possible, you are detained till the railroad cops show up, and most often, arrest, citation minimal.
If you are not a member of my crew, or work for my carrier, or happen to be someone we decided to give a cab ride to, you have no business riding anywhere on my train.
23 17 46 11
Well, it is true that after World War Two a lot a railroad men turned a blind eye to returning veterans hopping freights when space on passenger trains couldn't be had for love nor money. The railroaders knew these young men just wanted to get home as soon as they could, and could understand that.
Hell, most railroaders back then probably had sons in the service themselves and probably hoped another railroader somewhere would extend the same consideration.
1932 article and silent newsreel
CLEVELAND, Ohio, June 4 (AP) - Police and about one hundred bonus marchers clashed in the Pennsylvania railroad yards today when the veterans made a futile attempt to storm the roundhouse to obtain transportation to Washington. One of the marchers was beaten into unconsciousness and several others fell before a charge by mounted police officers, swinging riot clubs from the saddle. The group of marchers numbered about 100, part of the main body of about 1000 men who earlier were quietly moved out of the yards by several hundred police reserves after blockading the Pennsylvania main line during the night. When order was finally restored by police and leaders of the main group of marchers, the battalion was formed in lines and moved off toward Bedford,14 miles southeast of here, as their destination. There, leaders said, they will renew attempts to commandeer a train. The outbreak this morning was the first note of violence in the situation, which became tense during the night when the veterans were threatened with martial law and after all Pennsylvania trains, including a mail train, were blocked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZp9txOUxmQ
I found myself nearly slack-jawed as I read the news article wanswheel has posted. I can see that the version of events recorded here is nothing like what I understood the story to have been, but rather the opposite.
I also was very moved by the article and the accompanying video. The desperate plight of these men is really made apparent by the video link provided. What must conditions have been like in Cleveland for these men to act as they did? How I wish I had had resources such as YouTube when I was teaching; homework would have been much more interesting.
wanswheel: I remain as impressed with your scholarship as ever. Thank you.
Murphy, I'd say there's some truth to that book. What is the time frame it's written around, and does it focus on a certain part of the US and/ or Canada, etc. ?
Back in the late 1960's, I belonged to an informal group of high school and college students in the northern Philadelphia suburbs who were a combination of Boy Scouts and/ or rail fans, and we engaged in a combination of road trips and/ or model railroading, hiking, camping, canoeing, etc.
One of our group - Gary, who was a little bit bolder and 'wilder' than the rest of us - was attending college in Colorado (Denver or Boulder, not sure where), and also liked to ski in the Rockies on weekends. He told us he often hopped a freight train to get there and back (likely on the D&RGW Moffatt Tunnel line ?). One day after he dismounted at one end or the other of his trip, he was confronted by a crew member, which surprised Gary because he thought he hadn't been seen during his journey. The crewman wanted to know what he was doing on the train - Gary told him. The crewman then said something like "Gets pretty cold out there, doesn't it ?", and Gary admitted that yes, it does. The crewman then went on to tell Gary where the keys were put for the automobiles that were loaded on the then-open double-deck auto rack cars, and that instead of risking frostbite (or worse), that he should unlock one, sit in it for the ride, and then relock it after leaving ! (Which Gary had done a few times without any hassles, by the time he came back east and told us this story.)
For the record: I never did anything like that - all my 'freight car' riding was on either as an employee on MOW-type trains, or excursions on the East Broad Top, Strasburg, Cass Scenic, etc.
- Paul North.
Being caught in an auto on an autorack is a pretty much guaranteed way to get arrested.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Back in he Yuppe era, CBS or NBC news did a journey news story of young adults riding the rail for the adventures and excitement. Remember the interview taking place on a moving train looking out a box car door. Being on the far side of 20 myself and married thinking how dumb can some get riding a car with all the normal run-in/out of slack is enough to break a leg or arm. Not to mention even back in the 90's the railroad police did not take kindly to non-employees being on railroad property.
Like a lot of things today, people don't think, believe everything on the Web ("they can't put anything not true on the internet") and have no concept of the dangers in rail life. Just to point folks in the right direction, look how careless photographers are around the rails, its just something that makes a nice picture. Right, until we hear the news of a young couple going to the prom being run over by a train that couldn't steer clear.
This 'author' falls into this category.
This came up here a couple of years ago when just such a rider posted pictures of his adventures on the forum. He was quite proud of his accomplishment and saw no problems with his activities.
As I recall, the thread disappeared in short order, no doubt in part due to some pretty nasty comments.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Obviously times change. In the 70s and 80s, it was not at all unusual to hear anecdotes of young folks riding the rails in the West. One of the attractions some told me about was the ability to get to places, such as national wilderness areas, inaccessible by passenger rail and more difficult to reach by road. They exercised caution and had no problems, but actual cooperation from crews of that era.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Without knowing the date of the book that Murphy linked to the first post, it is hard to know whether the author is credible. If the book was written any time say in the last ten years, it sounds completely clueless. In this era, it is as if train crews have accepted the role of security police in addition to their normal work.
However, in the 1970s for instance, that was hardly the case. Unions would have wanted extra pay for the extra work of acting as a police force. So, in that era, what the book is said to describe is quite true. Of course there were always exceptions. But in that era, train crews were known to treat unauthorized riders as though they had purchased a ticket. And there were indeed a lot of adventurers out to see the world in addition to the regular complement of seasonal workers and people actually seeking free transportation.
One of the greatest perils for novice riders was riding in the small gap between a bulkhead and a lumber load on a bulkhead flatcar. Depending on how the load was secured, it could slide with a slack run-in and instantly crush someone occupying the gap.
Wanswheel, thank you for that. Makes me want to listen to Woody Guthrie music and I'm not trying to make a joke.
dehusman Being caught in an auto on an autorack is a pretty much guaranteed way to get arrested.
"Uh, gee officer, I was too drunk to drive, I had to get the car home SOMEHOW!"
edblysard Murphy Siding When a non-revenue passenger is *de-trained* by railroad personal, what usually comes next? If you are not a member of my crew, or work for my carrier, or happen to be someone we decided to give a cab ride to, you have no business riding anywhere on my train.
I don't like to call "them" animals, it's not fair to the animals, the real animals that is.
Savages, barbarians, some other unprintables my cop friends used to call them, but not animals.
We seem to see alot of young drifters from time to time traveling primarily north-south on the I95 corridor. Philadelphia is apparently a popular point of embarcation for these folks, most of whom appear to be in their early 20s. They frequently travel with dogs! How they manage to get Fido up on a piggyback flat, let alone ride there at 60mph is beyond me. Observing these "drifters", both male and female, they do not appear to be truley poor. Often their clothes and backpacks are high quality and none seem malnorished. My guess is this type of rider is in it more for the thrill and the counterculture brownie points.
From a railroaders point of view, I really never cared if they rode my train, as long as they remained invisable. Of course, they do not. And next thing you know, someone is calling us to report a rider on our train. With the ball squarely in our court, we, as a crew must now endeavor to have the individual(s) removed, as to continue on raises the spector of one of these clowns getting hurt and suddenly calling on that very culture they were thumbing their noses at, to award them with a huge liability settlement because we didn't safely remove them from their self-imposed peril. Nowdays, we have the dispatcher call the railroad police to meet us and escort the riders off the property. My understanding is that most of the time, they just check to see if they have any outstanding warrents, and if not, they turn them loose.
Had a train tonight reported with 10 non-revenue riders - when it got to the stopping point to meet the local authorities - no riders were found. However, we received a report that the train had 'struck' someone at a point 10 mile prior to the stopping point. Once authorities began to question the individual that was 'struck' it was determined that he had been riding the train and dismounted at speed, with less than optimum consequences.
The authors of the book talked for an hour on C-Span in 2005, at link.
http://www.c-span.org/video/?185825-1/book-discussion-bonus-army-american-epic
Walter W. Waters, leader of the Bonus Army, also wrote a book. Two chapters are online at link.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Cu3oAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA5&dq=%22w+w+waters+as+told+to+william+c+white%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NyDEU5CABZHhsAT46YDQBg&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22w%20w%20waters%20as%20told%20to%20william%20c%20white%22&f=true
Thanks for the history lesson. I might ask some of the commentaters on more recent train riders why it is necessary to demonize them to such a degree as to regard them as lower than animals? You may well not like them, but such contempt seems out of place.
Because the “modern” bums do stupid stuff that puts my crew at risk, like kicking open the rear anglecock, or playing with the retainer valve, or closing the valves between cars, because they are bored, stupid or for whatever reason they think up.
Keep in mind the train is my responsibility and anything that goes wrong is on me.
If I know they are there riding my train, and I don’t stop, and one of them gets hurt, all it takes is for their attorney to prove in court I knew they were present and did nothing to “protect “ them, such as stopping, and my carrier and myself get sued, screwed, blued and tattooed.
edblysard Because the “modern” bums do stupid stuff that puts my crew at risk, like kicking open the rear anglecock, or playing with the retainer valve, or closing the valves between cars, because they are bored, stupid or for whatever reason they think up. Keep in mind the train is my responsibility and anything that goes wrong is on me. If I know they are there riding my train, and I don’t stop, and one of them gets hurt, all it takes is for their attorney to prove in court I knew they were present and did nothing to “protect “ them, such as stopping, and my carrier and myself get sued, screwed, blued and tattooed.
Thanks. Those are clear and understandable reasons. But even so, hardly justifies some of the vitriol of others on here. And is there a history of such lawsuits being won or settled for large amounts?
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