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Whatever happened to intermodal on Canadien Nationals Fond du Lac to Green Bay route?

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  • Member since
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Posted by wcfan4ever on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:26 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Thanks, wcfan. Unfortunately, then, the information on the intermodal business isn't reportable by any reasonable standard. It would require a name and a verification of that person's qualifications to know that information -- anyone with access to and high-level information about the P&L statements for the last few years, for instance. A casual glance on a desktop won't do, because I wouldn't be able to ask them about what went into that P&L. Better yet would be the document itself and someone who would swear to its authenticity, and knowledge of its components. Otherwise, there's absolutely no way to separate the story from gossip, malicious intent, or criminal intent.

As for the interest only in the Chicago-Superior line, it's imposslble to know intent. However, you can measure if actions are consistent with intent. In this case, a well documented, before-and-after service levels report for all of the WC service units or lines would show if service has changed. That still doesn't prove that the corporation's interest has declined, however. It could actually prove they were more interested, because they were trying to reduce their costs to bring the service out of the red. What' you would then do is compare the document to the railroad's public statements and see if it was consistent. If that led nowhere, then you'd compare it to the historical record of similar changes to see if it falls into any established pattern that would enable you to predict future actions. You still haven't proved intent, of course -- you've only predicted a likely future behavior.

You see the problem here: knowing anything that you can sign your name to as a journalist, reporter, or observer of the railroad scene, other than what the railroad publically states and swears to, takes quite a lot of work, and often comes up empty anyway. That's why most of what you see in the business press works primarily with company statements, looking for patterns and testing for consistency. The cost of anything investigative is huge, and the marketplace for business reporting supports very little of that (too bad, because it's fun).

Business journalists proceed from the assumption that most people and corporations are reasonable, most of the time, and that market fundamentals will prevail. In the short term, people and corporations can be quite wrong, but it self-corrects when the market starts slapping them around. To believe otherwise is to believe that normal people, upon seeing a $100 bill blowing around in the street, stand there for the next 15 minutes to see if blows irretrievably into a sewer.


If there was a way for me to prove that service has went down on lines besides the Superior to Chicago line I would. If you check out the YahooGroup WCInfo, there are many employees on the group that explain what is true and not true. I'm sure they dont have documentation either but they would know more than the everyday railfan. I believe them until it is proven otherwise. There is no garuntee of not enough money, there could be another reason but I haven't heard of any yet. There was plenty of service on the line like I said before with upwards of 100 cars on the night train. To just cut service like that surprised me and everyone else too.

Dave Howarth Jr. Livin' On Former CNW Spur From Manitowoc To Appleton In Reedsville, WI

- Formerly From The Home of Wisconsin Central's 5,000,000th Carload

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 9:43 PM
Working at a fire station located right next to the line (watch out for ballast cutting the lawn.). It seems that since the CN takeover there are still quite a few trains running to Green Bay albeit not intermodal. A good one to count on is the Stevens Point train with its engines on both ends due to no connection in Neenah. It is a great surprise to me that intermodal was not profitable. WC had been running this for years even with having to run on trackage rights with the GBW.

Kraig
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Posted by Junctionfan on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 11:54 AM
You never know with CN. They cut service along the Toronto/Chicago line as well as the Toronto/ Buffalo lines. I don't know what the hell CN did with the Bala Subdivision which runs between Toronto Mac Millan Yard to Manitoba but there aren't as many trains on that line as there used to be.
Andrew
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Posted by wcfan4ever on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:09 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

In reference to the money CN was making on the Green Bay intermodal service, and CN's plans for WC being limited to Superior to Chicago. Could you share with us the documentation for that?


I have no documentation of this. I was told by more than one employee that work in the area everything that CN remarked about it. CN was the one that said there was no money in it.
As for the line being used between Superior and Chicago, they treat that line like gold along with the customers on it. You dont see that happening anywhere else. Rumor has it, there are many shortlines looking to expand in Wisconsin so they can offer better service to customers. One line being the Tomahawk and Western north of Wausau. From what I understand, CN runs 5-6 days a week. They said as of Oct. 1st, they are cutting service down to 3 days a week and customers are worried they wont get thier product. CN wouldn't cut service on the SupChi line now would they?

Dave Howarth Jr. Livin' On Former CNW Spur From Manitowoc To Appleton In Reedsville, WI

- Formerly From The Home of Wisconsin Central's 5,000,000th Carload

- Manitowoc Cranes, Manitowoc Ice Machines, Burger Boat

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Posted by wcfan4ever on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:04 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

The CNW used to bring intermodal down from Green Bay through Milwaukee to Chicago, presumably Global or Proviso. They'd pick up some in Milwaukee at St Francis. That service stopped in the 1980s as I recall. I never heard an explanation but presumably the distance was short and the on-line switching made it use up crew time so the usual intermodal efficiency wasn't there. I don't think CN picked up any cars once it left Green Bay however. Given what a nightmare Chicago is becoming I am surprised there isn't some market for intermodal from Green Bay. On the other hand Green Bay does not seem to be quite the traffic source it was in the 1970s to 1990s, if the declining rail picture is any indication.
Dave Nelson


CN did indeed pick up cars after leaving Green Bay. There was an Intermodel ramp in Neenah with anywhere from 5-30 cars. I remember watching T218 swtich the ramp at night picking up many cars. I remember on a few occasions, the train was almost over 100 cars! I know there is business in Green Bay left. Schnider National's home and CN says there isnt any trucks!?!

Dave Howarth Jr. Livin' On Former CNW Spur From Manitowoc To Appleton In Reedsville, WI

- Formerly From The Home of Wisconsin Central's 5,000,000th Carload

- Manitowoc Cranes, Manitowoc Ice Machines, Burger Boat

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Posted by dknelson on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 8:10 AM
The CNW used to bring intermodal down from Green Bay through Milwaukee to Chicago, presumably Global or Proviso. They'd pick up some in Milwaukee at St Francis. That service stopped in the 1980s as I recall. I never heard an explanation but presumably the distance was short and the on-line switching made it use up crew time so the usual intermodal efficiency wasn't there. I don't think CN picked up any cars once it left Green Bay however. Given what a nightmare Chicago is becoming I am surprised there isn't some market for intermodal from Green Bay. On the other hand Green Bay does not seem to be quite the traffic source it was in the 1970s to 1990s, if the declining rail picture is any indication.
Dave Nelson
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Posted by wcfan4ever on Monday, September 6, 2004 9:26 PM
Canadian National considered it un-profitable. They didn't see the point in it I guess. I know they were making some money off of it.

The Oakland Yard now is used for occasional coal car storage. I have also seen blocks of hoppers and tankers sitting there from time to time.
Maybe someday, we will see service restored to the line when trucks overload the road, CN will realize maybe they should have kept the service going. Of course they only want the line from Superior to Chicago and could care less about anything else.

Dave Howarth Jr. Livin' On Former CNW Spur From Manitowoc To Appleton In Reedsville, WI

- Formerly From The Home of Wisconsin Central's 5,000,000th Carload

- Manitowoc Cranes, Manitowoc Ice Machines, Burger Boat

  • Member since
    April 2003
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 6, 2004 5:27 PM
Not really a topic but really a question of why Canadien National has discontinued its intermodal trains to Green Bay. I have also noticed that Oakland yard in Green Bay, WC's intermodal yard now sits empty, along with the facilities in Neenah. Why is this?

Kraig
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Whatever happened to intermodal on Canadien Nationals Fond du Lac to Green Bay route?
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 6, 2004 5:24 PM
How come I never see any trailers or containers going to Green Bay anymore? WC used to have 4 trains for this service.

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