Interesting discussion everyone. I had no idea that any of the poles were still being used. I'd see them tipped partly over or sagging and I just figured the RR didn't have the money/manpower to take them down.
Learn something new every day.
cefinkjr Los Angeles Rams Guy: I'm probably in the minority here but I've always been somewhat fascinated by poles and pole lines. I've always thought that the IC/ICG and MILW had the best-looking poles and lines but CNW's were a little on the boring side. You may be in the minority but you're not alone. I too have always been intrigued by pole lines. This is a detail omitted from too many model railroad scenes.
Los Angeles Rams Guy: I'm probably in the minority here but I've always been somewhat fascinated by poles and pole lines. I've always thought that the IC/ICG and MILW had the best-looking poles and lines but CNW's were a little on the boring side.
I'm probably in the minority here but I've always been somewhat fascinated by poles and pole lines. I've always thought that the IC/ICG and MILW had the best-looking poles and lines but CNW's were a little on the boring side.
You may be in the minority but you're not alone. I too have always been intrigued by pole lines. This is a detail omitted from too many model railroad scenes.
Then it leads to collecting insulators and along with Edison bottles; and poisen ivy, too.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Los Angeles Rams Guy I'm probably in the minority here but I've always been somewhat fascinated by poles and pole lines. I've always thought that the IC/ICG and MILW had the best-looking poles and lines but CNW's were a little on the boring side.
ChuckAllen, TX
blue streak 1 I do not know the specifics of the above mentioned RRs. There was an article in Souther RR historical society mag that stated that SOU used the 2 sets of pole lines because the signaling system was AC based instead of DC and if signal lines had been on the communications pole line there would be interferrence between the 2. Anyone know more as I cannot quickly locate the article ??
I do not know the specifics of the above mentioned RRs. There was an article in Souther RR historical society mag that stated that SOU used the 2 sets of pole lines because the signaling system was AC based instead of DC and if signal lines had been on the communications pole line there would be interferrence between the 2. Anyone know more as I cannot quickly locate the article ??
Have no idea how to locate the article, but what you're describing is a brute force solution to inductive coordination. To put the comm lines on the same pole as the signal power lines would require lots of transpositions (i.e. the wires are flopped over), putting the power and comm lines on opposite sides of track would greatly reduce the number of transpositions needed.
- Erik
Los Angeles Rams Guy I remember in MILW days on their Chicago - Twin Cities mainline they had poles on each side of the tracks; one likely for ABS use and the other for communications. I think CNW had a similar set-up on their "Overland Route" mainline across Iowa and Illinois for a long period of time. IC/ICG used only one set of pole lines on the Iowa Division.
I remember in MILW days on their Chicago - Twin Cities mainline they had poles on each side of the tracks; one likely for ABS use and the other for communications. I think CNW had a similar set-up on their "Overland Route" mainline across Iowa and Illinois for a long period of time. IC/ICG used only one set of pole lines on the Iowa Division.
mudchicken Los Angeles Rams Guy: On a somewhat related note, I'm curious as to what the purpose was/is of "storm poles". I've seen these on the former IC/ICG in Iowa, on the MILW, former GN, and former CNW. Basically, where you have two poles acting as one and double cross-arms on each "gain" (if I'm interpreting Mudchicken correctly). Are these for wire tension? "H" Structures?....." Each structure must be designed for the loads imposed on it by the conductors. The weight of the conductor must be supported, as well as dynamic loads due to wind and ice accumulation, and effects of vibration. Where conductors (wires) are in a straight line, towers need only resist the weight since the tension in the conductors approximately balances with no resultant force on the structure." -Electrical Lineman's handbook The normal structure is "fixed" on the pole line by the insulator mounted on the crossarm (no elastic fasteners like catenary). The H-structure keeps the pole line from being pulled down if one section gets loaded up with ice, or a wind gust, or a line wire breaks . Once they fail, the pole line falls down in dominoe fashion. The H-Structure makes this harder to happen. This is why you see H-Structures near buildings and roads to protect them along with intermittent spacing along the line and especially on hilltops. Makes for an effective and relatively cheap way of protecting the pole line from structural failure. Anymore around here, if a pole line fails, they roll over like a wave (lateral failure instead of in-line failure) (and you count gains on a pole line from the bottom up)
Los Angeles Rams Guy: On a somewhat related note, I'm curious as to what the purpose was/is of "storm poles". I've seen these on the former IC/ICG in Iowa, on the MILW, former GN, and former CNW. Basically, where you have two poles acting as one and double cross-arms on each "gain" (if I'm interpreting Mudchicken correctly). Are these for wire tension?
On a somewhat related note, I'm curious as to what the purpose was/is of "storm poles". I've seen these on the former IC/ICG in Iowa, on the MILW, former GN, and former CNW. Basically, where you have two poles acting as one and double cross-arms on each "gain" (if I'm interpreting Mudchicken correctly). Are these for wire tension?
The normal structure is "fixed" on the pole line by the insulator mounted on the crossarm (no elastic fasteners like catenary). The H-structure keeps the pole line from being pulled down if one section gets loaded up with ice, or a wind gust, or a line wire breaks . Once they fail, the pole line falls down in dominoe fashion. The H-Structure makes this harder to happen. This is why you see H-Structures near buildings and roads to protect them along with intermittent spacing along the line and especially on hilltops. Makes for an effective and relatively cheap way of protecting the pole line from structural failure. Anymore around here, if a pole line fails, they roll over like a wave (lateral failure instead of in-line failure)
(and you count gains on a pole line from the bottom up)
Exactly what I was inquiring about. I've noticed that on the former GN these were always about ten poles apart although I suppose the spacing of these could vary from RR to RR.
Los Angeles Rams Guy On a somewhat related note, I'm curious as to what the purpose was/is of "storm poles". I've seen these on the former IC/ICG in Iowa, on the MILW, former GN, and former CNW. Basically, where you have two poles acting as one and double cross-arms on each "gain" (if I'm interpreting Mudchicken correctly). Are these for wire tension?
switch7frg henry6 thanks for the added insight to the thread. Iwould guess somethings never change no matter how old . If it works don't mess with it huh ? Cannonball
henry6 thanks for the added insight to the thread. Iwould guess somethings never change no matter how old . If it works don't mess with it huh ?
Cannonball
You are entirely welcome. I wonder if it is "if it works, don't mess with it" or if it is "it works if you don't mess with it". The problem comes when it works so well it is forgotten what and where it is!
This webpage has about 33 photos - some with lots of labels - of a UP RR Pole Line in Roy, Utah circa 2003: http://www.annsgarden.com/telecom/start.htm
Then see that guy - Neal McLain's - webpage on "Utility Poles", and especially "Railroad Poles" about 2/3 of the way down it, at: http://annsgarden.com/poles/poles.htm
See also: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,43207
http://www.oldgreypole.com/those_power_lines.html
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=56145
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,16764
- Paul North.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
Mudchicken, thank you for the info about the wires. From what I have been able to gather , that was quite an engineering in 1905 to build the rails through there. not much room between the river and the canyon walls. The Glenwood Springs (hot springs ) is a good place to get r&r and rail fan.
Merry Christmas to you & yours
Not all in Glenwood are dead. Power and signal lines are active and there are miles of lines connecting slide and rock detectors still active, CTC code line and F/O/C/ in a shared ditch cut on the shoulder. Western Union just got off their last remaining upgraded lines in the canyon.
Good question Cannonball. Maybe in Glenwood Canyon all down are out of service, but that may not be so at all locations and on other railroads. Any wire might be live in some way or another...only the railroad and/or its local track or signal people may know for sure, and even then there are surprises everyday. Often derailments or copper thieves help a railroad find out what went where and why!
Mudchicken; in Glenwood Canyonis all the lines dead?? Some lines are down on the ground and poles are leaning towards the river for a few miles in the Canyon . Would the cost to remove them be not worth the effort ? Or is this a reminder of days gone by?
Respectfully, Cannonball
Even with today's centralized traffic control (CTC) centers and radio communications, railroads still rely upon local power companies for trackside signals, turnout control, etc.
At the present time, the local power cooperative is setting a new line of power and CTC signal poles along the Union Pacific's Sunset Route east of Tucson, Arizona, where a track realignment project is underway. The UP is going to have three new block signal locations along a 3.5 mile stretch of new track which will require electrical power and CTC signal wiring.
(1) First, you have to recognize that, dependent on railroad and signal system, there is communications, electrical, telegraph and signal/code lines on an older pole line. Each gain (crossarm level) had assigned space and position for each type of service line. If you had a signallized crossing nearby, add more wires. (most polelines today just have just wires to support older crossing signal installations and these are rapidly going away)
(2) Some railroads (like UP) had separate pole lines for different service on both sides of the track. Others, like ATSF, kept the wires on one common pole line.
(3) Type of signal systems require different numbers of wirelines. CTC require the most, ABS considerably less and dark territory, almost none. Often, there would be additional lines held in reserve for lineside problems.
(4) In the bad old days, about half of the wires in the pole line were leased lines (think Western Union) before the advent of buried cable.
(5) On most railroads, on the bottom gain furthest away from the track were two insulated power lines. Closest to the track on the same gain were two communications bare wire lines, one voice (message phone) and one railroad telegraph. in between and going up would be the signal/code lines and the leased lines.
NEVER MESS AROUND OR GET CLOSE TO THE WIRELINE UNLESS YOU KNOW AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IS IN PLAY, WHAT IS LIVE AND WHAT IS CRITICAL. (not long ago, three really stupid teenagers found this out on a poleline near the Air Force Academy/ Colorado Springs and lived to tell about it, abeit badly burned)
(6) You can run an ABS signal system on two bare wires (rarely happened) and CTC requires lots more code lines and relays to get back to the control office (tower or dispatcher console)....out on a wobbly old branchline in dark country, you still had at least two wires for communication purposes.
Telephone pole, telegraph pole, utility pole, signal pole, line pole. Various names on various railroads and in various places. But all did (and still do) the same thing: carry communicating signals be it phone, telegraph, or trackside signal circuit information. The railroad itself would have numberous telephone circuits including dispatchers, station to station, system, etc.; similarly there were telegraph lines covering the same locations plus Western Union Telegraph system lines. Wayside signals's informaton was carried by these copper wires, too. The number of copper wires per pole or segment depended upon how many different paths were needed in that segment. This is description is before it was discovered that one line or one pair could carry more than one message by multiplexing and carriers which deleted the need for so many wires. And as time went on, fewere wires were needed or used but remained on the poles. Today's electronics, either by wire, by fiber optic, or radio, have all but eliminated the need for these wayside lines. However, in some places they are still in use in some form or another. There were places, at least into Conrail era, where lines were still carrying services which were not realized until and if a line went down trackside...signals would go out, telephone lines went dead...it wasn't until then that they knew what the lines were for or how and where they could or should be replaced. This might still be true in some places and is as much a reason railroads don't take them down as any other reason.
I see old telegraph poles next to the railroad tracks all over the place. Some only have two wires to a arm, while others have 4 arms with dozens of wires. In older photos I noticed these telegraph poles sometimes had ten or more rows with wires on them.
My question is what do these wires do and what is the minimum you need to operate a signal. I noticed when I was looking at the semaphore signals in New mexico they all had 6 wires to a pole.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.