Death Toll for Amtrak

[UPTRAIN]

How many people have been killed aboard Amtrak trains since the start-up in 1971? I know there were 48 as of September 21, 1993 and that number was nearly doubled when 47 were killed in the Sunset Limited wreck in the early morning of September 22, 1993. That makes 95 as of then, how many people have been killed since then. I was wondering because on the History Channel today, there was an episode of "Modern Marvals" which was titled "bullet trains". It said that nobody had been killed on a TGV (France) or a "Bullet Train" (Japan). I was just wondering how America's Train compares to the bullets.

[rrnut282]

It wouldn't be a fair comparison, since the TGV and shinkansens run on dedicated tracks that they don't share with freight or commuter trains. Also, their tracks are elevated as much as possible to eliminate all grade crossings and the accidents that can happen there.

[UPTRAIN]

True, but it does seem weird when ours are going 60 mph and their's are going...oh...200. And have had many more killed.

[rrnut282]

That's the beauty of grade separation (drivers would only have to wait 5 seconds at a crossing for a 200mph train that they can't beat anyway, so why try) and having the track to yourself.

One other thing tilting the playing field, they only have several hundred route-miles, Amtrack several thousand.

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with rrnut282, it really is unfair to compare the two eye-to-eye as oversears the bullets and TVGs (as mentioned) run on dedicated tracks. Grade crossings really do make a huge difference when it comes to accidents, as well as how easy the track is to access by trespassers.

[daveklepper]

When the Pennsy electrified NY - DC, all but two grade crossing were eliminated.
When the NYNH&H electrified Woodlawn - New Haven, ALL grade crossings were eliminated. What about Amtrak New Have - Boston?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

That's the beauty of grade separation (drivers would only have to wait 5 seconds at a crossing for a 200mph train that they can't beat anyway, so why try) and having the track to yourself.

One other thing tilting the playing field, they only have several hundred route-miles, Amtrack several thousand.

And Japan /France runs 10s of trains each way every day, amtrak tends to run 1 or 2. Playing field evened up ?

[Modelcar]

...There is no comparison....One, the US has not committed to modern technology for our rail passenger transportation...and the European's and Japanese have and put it to use. They have committed MONEY and we HAVE NOT...So there is no comparison. We use early 20th century technology [overall], and they use state of the art to do what they do in running their 'Bullet" and TVG's....If our leaders would commit to the same level as the overseas folks no doubt we could equal what they have accomplished....

[route_rock]

one story for you.What about the German(ice train i think) that derailed at speed.some much for high tech! First of all no way will money be a factor.1st problem NIMBY'sNot In My Back Yard people will not let you run trains throught their town no matter if it is in their best intrest or not.You have thousands of miles of track that would need grade seperations from not only public but rail grade crossings.Follow that by the miles of fence to keep people out the crew needed to keep them out.We have fast trains here NE Corridor.Will we see bullet trains in the midwest?Nope.Out west?Maybe but I doubt it.You have the land but no customer base(well unless the Western nimbys get togther.)so why bother with the expenditure.Also I dont think they run as many steep grades can you imagine a bullet train on Donner?One way trip to Hawaii it would seem[}:)][}:)]

[rrnut282]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 45144


And Japan /France runs 10s of trains each way every day, amtrak tends to run 1 or 2. Playing field evened up ?

It helps some, but keep in mind Amtrak has several "corridors" that have multiple frequencies also. How many run on the NE corridor every day? That racks up a lot of train-miles.

[jchnhtfd]

A few odd comments... first, several of the worst, though not all, of the Amtrak accidents have been grade crossing related. With regard to the Northeast Corridor New Haven - Boston segment, most of the grade crossings there were eliminated during the electrification project; not all, as some of the local communities refused to allow 'their' street to be closed, and declined to put up the money to build grade separation; Darwin Award time, civic government style. Second, there have been serious and fatal accidents on European high-speed trains, as route_jock noted, although not, as it happens on the TGV.
Other Amtrak accidents have been track-related. Here is is very relevant that all European high-speed trains run on dedicated track. As I'm sure iron feathers would tell you, it is d___ near impossible to keep track in good enough shape for 100 mph when you have heavy freight traffic on it. One reason why the Northeast Corridor has very very little freight traffic permitted.
I still haven't figured out how you drive a boat into a bridge, knock it down, and not know what you had done, though...

[Modelcar]

..Absolutely you need grade separation.....and many other high tech updates...and if we ever decide to do at least some of it...It certainly will take money..! Lots of it.

[UPTRAIN]

Thank you all for your comments, but also...HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED!?!?!?!!?

[Modelcar]

....I've searched for figures but have not been successful in finding totals from 1971 to present...

[UPTRAIN]

Thanks anyway.

[Paul3]

UPTRAIN wrote:

QUOTE: That makes 95 as of then, how many people have been killed since then.

Since then, the only fatal accidents I can recall are:
The sabotage wreck off the bridge out west (1 crewman killed)
The Illinois grade crossing wreck (Borbonouis-something?), train piled up when it hit some stationary boxcars and burned. Several (12?) passengers were killed.
The AutoTrain, when it hit a sunkink on CSX and the autocarriers piled into the passenger cars killing several (6?) passengers.

Now, I could be totally wrong on the numbers, so don't rely on my figures. (corrections welcome)

Please note that in every above case, none of it was Amtrak's fault. Sabotours, idiot truck drivers, and lax MoW practices by CSX are the reasons. Do the TGV and the Bullet Trains have great safety records? Yes, of course. But they are limited sytems run for national pride on highly maintained RoW's, while Amtrak is all over a large continent run as an after thought on other railroad's RoW.

In the entire 33 year history of Amtrak, just how many fatalities have been caused by Amtrak equipment, Amtrak track or Amtrak employees? Not that many.

daveklepper wrote:

QUOTE: What about Amtrak New Have - Boston?

IIRC, there are no grade crossings in Massachusetts on the NEC. Some were eliminated in the 1930's as a WPA project, while others were eliminated when state highways were rebuilt in the 1950's. The final few private crossings were eliminated in the 1990's electrification.

I know that New London, CT still has a grade crossing or two.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[WDGF]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 45144
And Japan /France runs 10s of trains each way every day, amtrak tends to run 1 or 2. Playing field evened up ?

DFW flys dozens of planes over my house every day, yet I can only recall one (Delta 191) ever hitting a car. Bullet & TGV probably have more in common with airliners than trains, in this respect. Grade separation and access protection make that large of a difference. It's apples vs. oranges.

[WDGF]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar
If our leaders would commit to the same level as the overseas folks no doubt we could equal what they have accomplished....

If the voting public were clamoring to have money from their paychecks spent on such a project, we'd have it. They're not, so we don't. If there were a private company which thought there would be enough ridership to make it profitable, even without government handouts, they'd build it. There isn't, so they haven't.

We don't have enough ridership to properly support the "old fashion" (i.e.: R&D costs are mostly, if not all, amortized) technology already in place on riders alone, and I can't imagine it increasing enough to pay for high-speed rail, except maybe in a few high volume corridors. You have to compete with airlines on an uneven playing field, and that's a tough game to play.

[Modelcar]

....And the airlines doing the same thing...[transporting people], can't stand alone money wise either...But we have it anyway...We subsidize them. And I'm not sure we have voted to do so....

[Train Guy 3]

It will take a lot of money to improve passenger lines, but do you think Amtrak will speand the money to do it.... that is if they had money.

[Modelcar]

Money and Amtrak has been an issue since it's beginnings....They have a difficult time each budgit year. Very difficult to continue running what they now have scheduled. As for improvements....I would say it's all in question until a forward looking plan can be implemented... or it is dismantled. My own opinion, I wouldn't know which way to think it might go.

[Modelcar]

Money and Amtrak has been an issue since it's beginnings....They have a difficult time each budgit year. Very difficult to continue running what they now have scheduled. As for improvements....I would say it's all in question until a forward looking plan can be implemented... or it is dismantled. My own opinion, I wouldn't know which way to think it might go.

[UPTRAIN]

I agree with all of those comments, but Amtrak can't go over to the states, if it goes there, it's gone, they, as you all know could care less!!! The FEDERAL government needs to step in and supply Amtrak with the appropriate funds to get back into the State of Good Repair. People always blame it on GWB, Amtrak has been around since 1971 not 2000, people blame it on him even though he hasn't really done anthing about it, it is not all HIS fault, ask yourself how many presidents we've had and how many times the government has changed since 1971 when the gov. gave Amtrak some cash and said, make trains run safe and on time and leave us alone!!! I'll have your comments on that.

[Puckdropper]

I think Amtrak has been making itself more visable since George W. came in to power. That's one of the things they've needed to do. How many Amtrak trains do you see at random? I'd say about 1 per every 100,000 opportunities for the common person. (Of course, if you're in Pontiac, IL about 11:00 near the UP tracks on Sunday, you'll see two...or at least you would.)

What would be best for passenger rail, IMO, is an elevated railway between big cities with feeder tracks to other cities. If you can average 120 mph, you'll save time for most all travelers (without a death wish.)

If you're familiar with the big cities in Illinois, have the main track between Chicago and St. Louis, then have a stop at Springfield with a feeder to Bloomington and Peoria, when you get down near St. Louis, have feeders that run off to Cape Giradeau, MO and Carbondale, IL. (If you can go from Chicago to St. Louis in 4 hours charging only $60 a ticket or so, you'll get people to ride. It'll cost that much to go by car.)

[Modelcar]

There are several large corridors that passenger rail constructed and run well with proper equipment that would probably serve a very usefull purpose in this country...That can't very well be done under the circumstances we have now...Politically, or otherwise. One thing we do seem to have is a good leader with Dave Gunn. I'm not trying to make this a political issue but the reality of it all is now.....and with all three bodies of government in the one political side in control now, Amtrak's existence doesn't bode well....This side of the politics has never been supportive of this form of transportation with a few exceptions...like T. Lott and Kay B. Hutchison, etc....so funding is being hacked at each fiscal year and it [Amtrak], can't continue to operate under these conditions in much of a useful form with the above continuing. Each year GWB tries another way to cut funding and even now trying to cut it up in pieces and fiend it off to the states...and we all know the shape many of them are in. We are spending a bunch of money on rail but look at last month's cover of Train's magazine and one can see where some of it is going....To someone else's rail...! Cut Amtrak up in little pieces and in my opinion it will be gone....But if a good rail passenger plan isn't soon devised it will be over. I know some will say about paying to keep it running, etc....we'll that is in part of our structure in this country...we have to pay to keep our infrastructure in place or it won't be there much longer...

[UPTRAIN]

Modelcar, you just about quoted Kay Bailey Hutchinson!!! LOL

[UPTRAIN]

Oh yeah, thanks puckdropper!!! Great comment.