Sawtooth500Speaking of that train getting stuck at 40 mph, I've noticed a lot of time with plow trains it's just a plow with 3 engines. My guess would be why not put it in front of a full freight? That would give it a lot lot more momentum to plow through the heavy drifts. I'm also guessing there is a reason why this isn't done, and that reason is?
For one thing, you normally can only plow for so long before you stop - sometimes very suddenly. It's easy enough to derail an engine or the plow, but coming to a dead stop with 50-100 freight cars behind you would cause quite a crash. Plus, even if you stop OK, you now have to back up 100 freight cars to take a run at the snow...pretty hard to push back 50-100 cars. Once you do, it will take a lot more track to get a full freight up to "ramming speed" than three engines and a plow would.
BNSFwatcher Okay. Please forward your address. What's for dinner? I love Italian food! . . . Anyhoo, snow shoveling, in moderation, is good exercise. Hays
Okay. Please forward your address. What's for dinner? I love Italian food! . . . Anyhoo, snow shoveling, in moderation, is good exercise.
Hays
Agreed - it can be a 'total-body, aerobic, and weight-training' exercise all together, with another good purpose or point to it ! I also think it ought to be an Olympic sport, rather than some of the others . . . Soon it's time for me to go and get my daily dose, too . . . [Why no 'emoticon' for that ?!? ]
- Paul.
Okay. Please forward your address. What's for dinner? I love Italian food! I used to shovel snow, as a kid, in New York. Made mega-$$$, in those days. Now I live in an apartment complex and and park my truck 'in back'. I try to keep a path clear to it, as I don't drive the Mustang GT in the snow, but, at age 71, I go at it slowly. I do have a clunky old snow blower, and that is fun. Getting snow cleared, out here in Montana, is a problem. No one wants to work, especially the kids! Will the day come when no one will work, all being on government entitlement programs? Scary, methinks!!! Anyhoo, snow shoveling, in moderation, is good exercise.
Paul_D_North_JrThanks for calling this to our attention and posting the link, KC.
Johnny
Wow ! Somebody just got a big trainset in their backyard - all the cars derailed ! At 4:45 AM = ''oh - dark - forty-five'', too ! The photo with the article reminds me of the ending of the Silver Streak movie somehow, too.
Fortunately, no serious injuries, and apparently no damage to the houses. Wonder if the cause was iced-in flangeways at a grade crossing, or a broken rail kind of thing ?
Thanks for calling this to our attention and posting the link, KC.
- Paul North.
.
Dateline: BNSF High Line, Shelberia, MT -- we got up to +64.2 degrees F. today! It is now +29, and falling! Snow predicted. Our DSs, in Ft. Worth, TX operate our switch heaters. If no train crew notifies them of the changes in the weather, they have to rely on the 'Defect Detectors' to tell them what is going on, temp-wise. True, the switch heaters are supposed to turn on, if enabled, by the presence of precipitation. If someone doesn't check them, the game is lost. That ain't nice.
I just finished re-re-reading Robert D. Turner's "Steam on the Kettle Valley" today. Some great snowplow pictures in it! Of note was that they always had a section crew with them. If a wedge plow got stopped, it would back off and the crew would shovel snow in front of it to provide a 'cushion' for the next attempt. When a rotary got to a snowshed, or tunnel, the section hands would have to dig out the plug it left before it could pass through. Not much fun, up on the Coquihalla, or elsewhere, in those winters! We get "wind slabs", up here in Montana, due to the fierce winds. No fun, even for the recreational snow shoveler! No fun to ski on, either. "They'll bite you!".
Exactly.
kolechovskiAfter getting at least 18 inches of snow in the snowstorm 2 weeks ago, while switching in the yard at the plant, 1-1/2 empty hoppers went on the ground due to deep snow.
After getting at least 18 inches of snow in the snowstorm 2 weeks ago, while switching in the yard at the plant, 1-1/2 empty hoppers went on the ground due to deep snow.
I believe geography, climate, preparedness, and experience are all factors in addition to equpment and operations. Where there is very little snowfall a flake or two can send auto and rail traffic into all kinds of spins and standstills; where snow is a daily occurance from October to April, they know what to do in advance so that even several inches or more than a foot of snow will only slow things down and not bring all to a halt. Plows and pilot plows help keep lines open and not stop a train. Tracks that go untrfficed for long periods of time vs density of snowfall might stop but definitely slow a train or train service while a track that sees more frequent traffic vs density of snowfall will have fewer delays and stopages. Switches which are frozen or snowed in can prevent movement thus switch heaters and or trackmen with brooms and shovels are needed to keep things rolling. Lots of answers to your question but basically in boils down to where you're railroading and how prepared and knowledgeble you are.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Paul_D_North_Jr Someplace a year or two ago I saw or read an explanation by a motive power person as to why it's easier to get stuck with a plow being pushed by - say, 3 locomotives - as opposed to just 1. It was counter-intuitive, of course, but made sense when studied. I can't replicate the rationale - maybe with some luck I'll be able to find it and link it here - unless someone else can explain it here first ?
OK, I just stumbled over it while looking for something else -
When is One Greater Than Three?By: Dick HoveyApril 17, 2007
at - http://www.railpictures.net/articles/article.php?id=14
The 'star' of this story and photos from 1979 was UP 168, a borrowed GP9 with a large pilot plow on its front/ short end, with a pair of N&W GP38-2's. The short version is -
After explaining their plight they were surprised by the response. “Well boys”, the RFE said, “You’ve got too many engines. With multiple units under those conditions, one of them is bound to unload due to wheelslip. When that happens you're just dragging dead weight and the other engines will start to slip too. Your only hope is to go with just the 168.”
The rest of the story is pretty good, and not too long - I recommend it.
How much snow to stop a train? A light dusting will do it, given enough weight on the drawbar and a grade. Been there....
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
From now on, a telephoto lens Trains, December 1988 page 30 a wedge plow flinging snow farther than anticipated ( "BEAUMONT, RALPH", CPR, FRONTISPIECE, PLOW, SNOW, TRN )
I remember that one, too:
So you wanted an SW1200 for Christmas Trains, December 1987 page 39 switcher derailed, in driveway of house ( ACCIDENT, CNR, FRONTISPIECE, "INGLES, J. DAVID", TRN )
I can say that 3ft snow has not stopped me not from a start or at 45mph. it is fun to watch that snow fly when plowing thru it and looking back al you see is white. the better question would be how much snow does it take to keep you from stopping?
This also is from memory, absent as it may be.
At least 25 years ago there was a photo in 'Trains' showing a CNR end-cab GM yard locomotive in the snow with it's reflector headlight peering in the front window of a bungalow.
What had apparently happened is that the locomotive had derailed at sand, ice and gravel-filled flangeways at the nearby level crossing, slewed to one side, then followed the sloped road down and across onto the lawn, stopping just short of the house.
One can argue all one wants, but, CNR kept a pair of GM A units for years just for plow service, and used them in freight service the rest of the time.
I suspect this may be an 'urban legend' sort of thing. If so, it has a 'punch line', too.
That starts with the engineer being 'called on the carpet' shortly thereafter to explain to the Trainmaster or Superintendent how that extraordinary event happened. Of course, the engineer explained about the 'ground blizzard' and how the zero visibility, etc. prevented him from realizing what had gone wrong and what had happened instead, etc. I'll leave it to somepne else to pick up the story from there, as the ending is a little different . . .
tomikawaTT Working strictly from memory, since I first read this (in Trains or Railroad) a half-century or more ago. Scenario: Grande passenger train, 4-8-4 power, running eastbound (downgrade) from Tennessee Pass at night in a ground blizzard, temperature 'way below zero. At an acute-angle grade crossing, the ice in the flangeways (which must have been as hard as armor plate) lifted the flanges, derailed the locomotive parallel to the road centerline and on the road. The engineer didn't realize that he was no longer on the rails until a signal failed to appear. At that point he had run about a mile down the ruts of the hard-frozen dirt road. No injuries, no damage to the equipment - but I'll bet getting that train back on the rails was a bear. Chuck
Working strictly from memory, since I first read this (in Trains or Railroad) a half-century or more ago.
Scenario: Grande passenger train, 4-8-4 power, running eastbound (downgrade) from Tennessee Pass at night in a ground blizzard, temperature 'way below zero.
At an acute-angle grade crossing, the ice in the flangeways (which must have been as hard as armor plate) lifted the flanges, derailed the locomotive parallel to the road centerline and on the road. The engineer didn't realize that he was no longer on the rails until a signal failed to appear. At that point he had run about a mile down the ruts of the hard-frozen dirt road.
No injuries, no damage to the equipment - but I'll bet getting that train back on the rails was a bear.
Chuck
Chuck;
That story might surely qualify for the "URBAN LEGEND" Thread!
" ...about a mile down the road"... At that point did he grab the steering wheel, and driver back on to the rails??
Sawtooth500I'd imagine it because if you only have 1 loco you can only push so deep into the snow - with 3 locos you can push deeper. Which means you'd be able to push through a deeper drift - to a point. When that point is reached, and you get stuck, you're in way deeper snow in the first place than you'd be with just 1 loco.
My old boss on the farm had the same theory about 4WD pick up trucks "they'll just get you stuck further away from the house".
I have to argue this
AgentKid Cab Units were preferred on plows as less snow 'dust' would get into electricals to cause Ground Relays. http://members.shaw.ca/cprclc3/Album1/Plow_Extra_4053_Derailed_Elkview_Switch_on_Fording_River_Sub_March_1,_1972.jpg
Cab Units were preferred on plows as less snow 'dust' would get into electricals to cause Ground Relays.
http://members.shaw.ca/cprclc3/Album1/Plow_Extra_4053_Derailed_Elkview_Switch_on_Fording_River_Sub_March_1,_1972.jpg
Dry snow will get into the unit just as fast and deep with a covered wagon VS an old geep. One of the big problems is with snow getting packed on top of hot traction motors and dripping into the motor. doesn't really matter what kind of unit. But the doors on a regular cab can and do get packed shut to the point you may have to crawl out the windows if you can open them. With the doors on an F opening inward that wouldn't be near the issue.
As for why you would want two or three units vs one; is, as stated, what happens when the unit dies, it can get awfully cold awfully quick.
Wheel slip would have been an much more of an issue with the older geep-7's then with dash 2's and modern power. but this can also lead to getting a plow stuck much harder then you would have had with one.
Kootenay CentralCab Units were preferred on plows as less snow 'dust' would get into electricals to cause Ground Relays. http://members.shaw.ca/cprclc3/Album1/Plow_Extra_4053_Derailed_Elkview_Switch_on_Fording_River_Sub_March_1,_1972.jpg This plow is derailed after being dragged in reverse until snow lifted nose. The Sectionman to right moving replacer was one of three brothers killed in spring mudslide about 6 weeks later at Michel, B.C.
This plow is derailed after being dragged in reverse until snow lifted nose.
The Sectionman to right moving replacer was one of three brothers killed in spring mudslide about 6 weeks later at Michel, B.C.
K.C., that is quite the picture.
That is a very interesting consist. According to the Canadian Trackside Guide, 2007 Edition, that type of Centre Cupola Wide Vision Caboose didn't start being built until 1971. According to www.mountainrailway.com the #4053 was retired in June 1975. I still can't figure out how to copy links with Firefox, or I could show you a picture of #4053 on a more pleasant day.
But that plow #400640, is something else again. This plow was rebuilt at CP's Angus Shop in Montreal in December 1920 from wooden plow #400726, built sometime between 1880 and 1920. They don't seem to have those records. The CPR was formed in 1881, so either they bought it used or it was built in very early days to need rebuilding by 1920. The CPR sure didn't like to throw anything away!
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.