What and where is the deadmen control or button in the cab of diesel engine?
On recent engines, it's a button on the control console usually. You have to press the button every so often (maybe once every 60 seconds?) or make some change in the controls like increase/decrease the throttle or adjust the brake setting, blow the horn etc. There's usually a display that counts down the time remaining. If the countdown reaches zero and you haven't hit the button, the train brakes come on.
Some systems now sense motion, and will ask you to press the button if you've been motionless for a certain amount of time.
In early versions from years ago it was a pedal you had to hold down - which is why engineers sometimes carried a brick in their satchells.
The active engine service folks on our forum will be able to correct any inaccuracies here, but as I recall most first and perhaps second generation units had an actual pedal that the engineer would depress with his/her foot and it kept the unit "aware" that there was actually someone in control of the train operation, but contemporary units now have a computerized system that only requires the engineer to make some sort of "control" movement (i.e. brake application, throttle movement, horn activation, etc., etc.) in order to alert the system that he/she is in control of the train...if no "feedback" is perceived by the engine computer system in a predetermined period of time the unit will automatically apply its brakes and bring the train to a stop due to it assuming nobody is in control.
The "dead man's pedal" was/ is on the floor at the engineer's control stand, in older locomotives (esp. diesel - not steam, though). Nowadays, it is more commonly an 'alerter" button somewhere on the control stand, desk, or side wall of the locomotive cab, which the engineer has to touch every so often to reassure and demonstrate to the control system that he is still alive and functioning. Beyond this, you might find some people to be understandably reluctant to discuss this in detail, out of concern for security and safety reasons. I didn't find anything much on this site, so try an Internet search. Here's some of what I found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_switch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-man's_vigilance_device
http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/101269284/Dead_Man_System_Caution_And_Alert.html
http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/simulator/index.shtml
Watch almost any video of a cab ride, and you'll see the engineer either touching/ operating the alerter button frequently, or else overriding the resulting warning after he fails to do so, and the system warns him that if he doesn't do something in the next X seconds, then the system is going to stop the train automatically, etc.
- Paul North.
wjstix In early versions from years ago it was a pedal you had to hold down - which is why engineers sometimes carried a brick in their satchells.
Or why they would whittle a point onto the wooden shaft of a red signal flag - to wedge it into the pedal to hold it down. (As per "Bozo Texino" and various stories and written recollections by W.M. "Mike" Adams of the Missouric Pacific.)
- PDN.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
Justin: Yes, crew fatigue is a big issue the railroads are facing. Most older locomotives don't have alerters, so on older locomotives, the engineer dozing off and passing a signal or something was a big problem. Nowadays, that's less of an issue but ONLY on locomotives equipped with alerters! The big Class 1s are still operating a lot of older locomotives without alerters, and with the exception of the regionals/shortlines with new or rebuilt power equipped with alerters, it's still a problem.
Even with alerters, I would think you get into a routine and just press it automatically, on autopilot. While you can't easily doze off, spacing out might be an issue, causing you to miss a signal or something. Any railroaders want to elaborate on that?
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TrainManTy Even with alerters, I would think you get into a routine and just press it automatically, on autopilot. While you can't easily doze off, spacing out might be an issue, causing you to miss a signal or something. Any railroaders want to elaborate on that?
I thought the "alerter" was great! It was just like the "snooze" button on your alarm clock. No crossings or signals for the next 60 seconds? Take a short nap; the alerter will wake you in time....
Of course, if you attach a rubber band to it with just the right amount of weight on the other end, the bouncing and sway of the locomotive will keep your contraption hopping around without any intervention needed to keep it thinking you are alert. Be alert! The world needs more lerts.
The best safety device is a rested engineer.
bubbajustinI belive that this is what caused a CN trian to smash head-long into a VIA Rail train a few years back. The engineer would put his or her lunch box on the pedal and then would fall asleep.
The air hose wrench worked much better than a lunchbox.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Paul_D_North_Jr wjstix In early versions from years ago it was a pedal you had to hold down - which is why engineers sometimes carried a brick in their satchells. Or why they would whittle a point onto the wooden shaft of a red signal flag - to wedge it into the pedal to hold it down. (As per "Bozo Texino" and various stories and written recollections by W.M. "Mike" Adams of the Missouric Pacific.) - PDN.
Or bend the spare brake hose and wedge it in under the edge of the control stamd with the glad hand end holding the pedal down.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
zardoz bubbajustinI belive that this is what caused a CN trian to smash head-long into a VIA Rail train a few years back. The engineer would put his or her lunch box on the pedal and then would fall asleep.You're thinking of the Silver Streak. The air hose wrench worked much better than a lunchbox.
No, the incident he's referring to actually happened up in Canada. It was portrayed on one of those hour long documentary type TV shows on Discovery, National Geographic Channel etc.
I don't know if the engineer actually used a lunch box, but that's what the show said.
Jeff
I haven't been on a Class I locomotive for a l-o-n-g time that wasn't equipped with a working alerter so whoever said otherwise, I would just have to question that.
Not all roads had deadman pedals, the N&W never had them but along about 1971 or 2, they began equipping locomotives with alerters that had a wire attached to a small switch in the console, that had to be hit about every 43-45 seconds. The early ones had to be hit, the bell or whistle or throttle position changes had no effect on them.
Zardoz, don't know about C&NW, but the N&W alerters, if struck too much, would cause the air to set up, so I don't know how long your rubber band would have worked there. Some of those old engineers, who absolutely despised them, had their own methods, though, but I hesitate to go into that here, even though today it would be HIGHLY illegal to do some of the things they did with them. They were downright insulted that the company thought they might fall asleep.
ValleyX I haven't been on a Class I locomotive for a l-o-n-g time that wasn't equipped with a working alerter so whoever said otherwise, I would just have to question that. Not all roads had deadman pedals, the N&W never had them but along about 1971 or 2, they began equipping locomotives with alerters that had a wire attached to a small switch in the console, that had to be hit about every 43-45 seconds. The early ones had to be hit, the bell or whistle or throttle position changes had no effect on them. Zardoz, don't know about C&NW, but the N&W alerters, if struck too much, would cause the air to set up, so I don't know how long your rubber band would have worked there. Some of those old engineers, who absolutely despised them, had their own methods, though, but I hesitate to go into that here, even though today it would be HIGHLY illegal to do some of the things they did with them. They were downright insulted that the company thought they might fall asleep.
We did, however, get enough foreign power that had deadman devices. Back then, most of the alerters were a spring-like toggle extending out from hole in the control stand. There was no penalty for hitting the alerter too often.
Regarding the old engineers you mentioned, it is my belief that there are 2 types of engineers: those who will tell you that have fallen asleep at the throttle, and those that won't admit that they too have nodded off at the controls. It's just that some engineers nod off more than others.
But when one is working on call 24/7 month after month, answering to crew callers that couldn't care less about their punctuality and honesty, there are going to be times that a person is going to get called to go to work in a less-than-rested condition. You young'ns never had to work on call be fore there were pagers, cell phones, caller id, computers, etc, all which give you great flexibility in away-from-work activities. All we had was a land line at home with the phone number of the crew caller who, if he was in a good mood and liked you, MIGHT give you straight information regarding what trains were coming, who had laid off, etc. Most rails even had an extension phone line installed in their bathroom; for if the callers wanted to be jerks, if you were sitting on the throne and heard the phone ringing and upon completion of personal business immediately called the caller back, the caller could tell you that you missed a call and were going to get written up for discipline. So you would miss a few day's pay in addition to getting disciplined. THOSE were the reasons I left railroading back then; today it's comparatively easy being on call.
If I had a dollar for every time I tied up 9 times out on a ten-person board, with nothing showing and the phone ringing 6 hours later.......
ValleyXZardoz, I know that if you hit ours TOO often, then they wouldn't reset and then you had to recover the penalty by going to suppression or letting it set up. Of course, if you were quick enough, you could cut out the brake valve, set it on suppression, and reset it, then cut it in, not that I'd know anything about that.
ValleyX I know exactly what you're talking about, these younger folks really and truly don't know how good they have it with cellphones and the like, I thought a pager was such a liberating device, and it was. I've had several tell me that they just simply wouldn't have worked for the railroad if they had to sit by the phone and wait for it to ring. Yeah, right, if you didn't know any better, that's exactly what you would have done. Heck, I remember when I got a cordless phone and I thought that was pretty daggone nice.
I know exactly what you're talking about, these younger folks really and truly don't know how good they have it with cellphones and the like, I thought a pager was such a liberating device, and it was. I've had several tell me that they just simply wouldn't have worked for the railroad if they had to sit by the phone and wait for it to ring. Yeah, right, if you didn't know any better, that's exactly what you would have done. Heck, I remember when I got a cordless phone and I thought that was pretty daggone nice.
A really long time ago, I'm down in Champaign for no good reason. I see a friend and co-worker who had run suburban, but set back to firing he is working the Northbound Panama Limited. An E-8 is on the point and I am offered a ride.
Probably one of the best jobs on the engineer's roster, my guess is that hogger is near the top of the list. From my young view, he looks like he is pushing 80, but he is at lesast old enough to have to go into the nose and use the facilities 2-3 time during the 2 hour trip.
His grip was setting on the floor next to his right foot and probably held a couple of locomotive brake shoes just in case a replacement was needed.
It is a bit disconcerting to be running up the line at 80 per with the left seat empty. However, during his absence there were no grade crossings or any other reason to be at the controls. So?
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
I recall a BBC series that aired on PBS in the eighties that showed a deadman pedal in use on the Australian railroads on an EMD E-unit going across the "Null Arbor" ("No Trees") part of the country, on the world's longest straight track. I think that was the first time I learned about it, although by then it had been around for many years.
Scary to think they didn't use to have laws about how long you could work before you had to have time off. If things were busy in the 1800's an engineer might work a day or two straight thru - probably part of the reason accidents were so common. I remember reading an oldtimer saying it wasn't uncommon back then to be holding up an order for an engineer to pick up on the fly, only to realize the engineer wasn't reaching for the orders but had his arms flailing around outside the cab because he'd gone to sleep or just passed out from exhaustion. He said it was a terrible feeling to see that with a train of passenger cars running behind the engine. Not much you could do but wire ahead to the next station and hope they could clear the track until the engineer came to or someone on the train realized there was a problem and got up to the cab somehow.
Kootenay CentralOn some electric equipments the Motorman/Engineer had to hold the Controller Handle depressed unless the Independant was applied. Heavy third rail operations were extremely interesting and usually had decades-old motors and other equipment to marvel at.
On some electric equipments the Motorman/Engineer had to hold the Controller Handle depressed unless the Independant was applied.
Heavy third rail operations were extremely interesting and usually had decades-old motors and other equipment to marvel at.
The Metro-North M3 electric cars still work this way. The handle is spring loaded and needs to be held down by the engineer, as shown here.
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