RED MEANS STOP right?

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rick Gates

Would it be easier if internationally, all signals were standardized to cover all senarios everywhere. Rule 292 woulf be understood by all and so on. Sort of like speaking one language. All signals could be recorded when need be by rule number. Just a thought.[swg]

I don't know that it would make much if any difference. Prior to the FRA mandated signal rules, every roads signal system was different, and if you ran over their road, you had to pass their rules exam. I would think that on CONRAIL, you would have seen a bit of that, but that would also depend on where you were assigned. I'm thinking here about the various roads such ans CNJ, RDG, E-L and so on. Things ran well.

So I would think that it would be rather simple to take two rules exams, one for the US and one for Canada. The rules are, essentially, the same.

BTW, the def of "Restricted Speed", now is, I think ---1/2 the distance to the obstacle not to exceed 20.

on csx
restricted speed is
be prepaired to stop within 1/2 the range of vistion...stoping short of a train, a car, an obbstruction, on track equipment, imporpery lined switch, derail or stop signal...it must permit looking out for broken rail...and must not exceed 15mph
csx engineer

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rick Gates

Would it be easier if internationally, all signals were standardized to cover all senarios everywhere. Rule 292 woulf be understood by all and so on. Sort of like speaking one language. All signals could be recorded when need be by rule number. Just a thought.[swg]

I don't know that it would make much if any difference. Prior to the FRA mandated signal rules, every roads signal system was different, and if you ran over their road, you had to pass their rules exam. I would think that on CONRAIL, you would have seen a bit of that, but that would also depend on where you were assigned. I'm thinking here about the various roads such ans CNJ, RDG, E-L and so on. Things ran well.

So I would think that it would be rather simple to take two rules exams, one for the US and one for Canada. The rules are, essentially, the same.

BTW, the def of "Restricted Speed", now is, I think ---1/2 the distance to the obstacle not to exceed 20.

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

doggy..
no..its 2 strike and your out on some rules...if you live..... your first strike is a suspention..to think about what you did...the second time..your done...
i could sit here and type out the intire csx dissaplanery policy for you..but that would just take to long...and besides..if you dont work for csx...would mean next to nothing...
doggy..
for once and i know it might be hard for you.... read something i say with an open mind..and not make some comment.... i said it was 2 strikes... not 1...2....
csx engineer

I will agree with you 100% but add one thing. ( for doggy to think about) what may be a minor thing on the csx ( just being chewed out ) may require some time off on another railroad. each railroad has its own way of dealing out the punishment. If i was to get on moving equipment on the ns its 15days. and depending on your record it may go on paper hanging over your head. Now just maybe on the csx( and i dont know just a example) they might turn their heads and say nothing.

[csxengineer98]

doggy..
no..its 2 strike and your out on some rules...if you live..... your first strike is a suspention..to think about what you did...the second time..your done...
i could sit here and type out the intire csx dissaplanery policy for you..but that would just take to long...and besides..if you dont work for csx...would mean next to nothing...
doggy..
for once and i know it might be hard for you.... read something i say with an open mind..and not make some comment.... i said it was 2 strikes... not 1...2....
csx engineer

[Mookie]

Doggy - if I may interject here - years ago, which is the only thing I can go by - you had a rule infraction and they had an investigation. Then they decided how much vacation you would take - at your own expense. It may be a set time for set things, now, but any rules infraction is serious - since lives are at stake. You could be pulled out of service for life or for 10 days or for whatever they deem punishment for the infraction. So while the details may be different in 2004 than they were in the dark ages (50's-60's) - the one rule is the same - don't break the rules.

Mook

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

adams....
thats the same thing here in the US... if you pass an abslulte signal that is displaying a STOP indication... without permision of the train dispatcher.... you are FIRED.....DO NOT PASS GO..DO NOT COLLECT 200 BUCKS...for at least 30 days.... on the rail roads here..... being fired is more or less a suspetntion for what ever time limet the disaplary investication desides it should be.... for your first offence on passing a stop without permison... its normaly 30 days off... but here on CSX...they have started a new policy a few years back....that if you should pass a stop signal without permistion..its 30 days off...and your next office..no matter when it happens in your rail road carrier...is PERMINET DISSMISSAL.....this also aplyes to running a red board at a 707... they lumped it into a cataigory of "occupying main track without permission"....under the critical life rules disiplane policy...
on csx....5 critical life rules are......
occupying main track without permision....( running a red signal..... running a red board at a 707 work order....running a DTC block in dark territory)
blue flags.....( running into a track that is blue flag protected)
for the signal man....failer to maintain crossing warning devices....
and for MOW workers..failer to be use fall protection....(being tied off with a rope to prevent hiting the ground when working above sertain feet)
i forget the last one...but ill look next time i report for duty..lol....
csx engineer

CSX,
is it 1 strike and your out right?

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

I think it means stop

DOGGY

[Rick Gates]

Would it be easier if internationally, all signals were standardized to cover all senarios everywhere. Rule 292 woulf be understood by all and so on. Sort of like speaking one language. All signals could be recorded when need be by rule number. Just a thought.[swg]

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

big diffrince between Restricting..and Restricive

Absolutely. Rick saw the difference. When a dispatcher or interlocking operator wants to inform you that you have something other than high green, such as when he has taken a signal away from you, he will use the term "Restrictive". The word, "Restricting" can apply several different ways, and is, as you say, the name of a signal indication. My experience is that it would be a "solid yellow", what we used to call "Approach, Prepared to Stop". If he has "cleared" a signal for you, he/she would say "I have given you a less restrictive signal. You may proceed according to signal indication." Perhaps a particular rule would also apply in which case he would also state what rule that would be.

The bit about the flashing red was to add it to the conversation about "When RED doesn't mean stop". Although it could be used in advance of a solid red (either ABS or Absolute) I suppose, I have only seen it used at interlockings or within CTC where switch engines use the main, a yard switching lead that has main line access, as the "enter yard" signal when leaving CTC or an interlocking into a yard, or where going from signaled main line to dark main line within yard limits. It appears to take the place of the square "R" fixed signal (sign) where block signals of any type are in operation. "R" in this case means "Proceed at Restricted Speed" and this restriction would then end at a yard board.

The flashing red sure would have been nice to have when I was working CTC interlockings. You could just have brought the train up to your solid red "A" and when he contacted you saying he was stopped, I could just have given him a flashing red, and he could have just gone about his business, contacting me when done. But no. Each time, each direction, stop, ask, permit, go, stop, ask, permit, go, stop ask, permit, go ----and on and on. It makes "aceie-ducie" 100 cars over a CTC switch a real chore.

[Rodney Beck]

Yes under GCOR the dispatcher can talk you by the signal. Sorry I have been working alot. Rodney

[CShaveRR]

I've got one for you...

Soon after I started working for the CNW (this would have been 1971), I was on a Proviso-to-Butler (WI) road train. The train ahead of us was having problems, stalling on those rugged grades [;)] between St. Francis and Butler. We cut away from our train and gave him a pu***he first time, but a few miles later he was stalled again. This time we took our train with us as we pushed him.

We got our trains moving at a decent speed, their conducor cut away from us, and we slowed down a bit. About 20 seconds later, speed still decreasing, my engineer looked over at me and asked, very casually,

"Ever run an absolute signal before?"

I looked up in time to see the three red semaphores of Belton Junction go by the window![:0]

I don't think we had much choice at that point, and we heard nothing more about it. Of course, that was then...who knows who would want to make something out of it nowadays?

[csxengineer98]

big diffrince between Restricting..and Restricive

[Rick Gates]

Sounds as though Eric and CSX are talking about two different things and you are both correct. A "Restrictive " signal used in communication is, as eric said, any signal displaying a more restrictive indication than the one previously passed. CSX was replying to the flashing red signal example Eric gave, allowing crews to do switching from a yard or interchange without contacting anyone. He is talking about a "Restricting" signal. As he said, this indication is to proceed prepared to stop short of train, obstruction, switch improperly lined looking out for broken rail, not exceeding 15 mph. That would be the signal one might expect at these type of locations going from dark to lit territory, or dark to dark. The "Flashing Red" sounds to me, to be similar to a "Permisive Block" which, though worded a bit differently, gives the same basic indication of a Restricting signal that CSX was talking about.

[Anonymous]

To help confuse things more, in Canada a restricting signal is a single yellow (Solid, Not Flashing), a single yellow under red, or a single yellow under double red, or a red single signal with an "R" underneath of it......

Here in Canada (CROR) a restricted signal means you have to proceed at a resticted speed, meaning you have to be able to stop within your field of view.

I'm suprised to hear that signals vary, I kind of assumed they would be the same across North America.....

You can check out the Canadian Signals here....
http://www.tc.gc.ca/railway/Rules/CRORprint.htm

[csxengineer98]

the T&E deffinition of a restricting signal is a signal that will alow a train to proseed at restricted speed... under the signal rules for us crews... an apporch mediam dose not mean the same thing as a restricting..
but the example you gave is not a true STOP signal.... under that rail roads rules...the train is able to go by it without talking to anyone...such as a restricting signal....
csx engineer

[kenneo]

Having worked dispatching and train orders, I have a defination of restricting signal that I think you do not have. Mine is - any signal that displays a more restrictive indication than the one you just passed. Also, any signal other than green.

I don't know what the indication is named. It could well be "Restricting Signal". It came about after I left the Operating Department.

[csxengineer98]

kenneo,
that would be like a restricting signal then... not a true STOP indication....
csx engineer

[kenneo]

Speaking of passing REDs at Restricted Speed. There is a signal indication that permits passing and "A" signal displaying red without stopping. It is Flashing Red. It is definded as pass without stopping and operate at restricted speed. Normally used at interchanges and yard entrances where switch engines can occupy the main. That way, each time a switch crew needs to use the main, the dispatcher does not have to talk them through the signal. Just puts up a flashing red. By as often as you need and no conversation with the YM or DS needed.

[csxengineer98]

wabsh,
since i work for csx...i dont know what other rail roads can and cant do comparied to csx... up untill just a few years ago..i didnt know any rules besides CSX and NORAC existed.... so any input on how other class 1s do things is always good information....
csx engineer

[mudchicken]

Ironhorse & CSXhogger:

fall Protection is 49CFR214 related (Bridgeworker safety) and the threshold is 12 feet...not the same as OSHA's 6 foot rule

(*) Any grain elevator not having fall protection gantries (yellow cantilievered "dog runners" in most places) in place where they have a guy opening the hatches on a covered hopper is in deep doo-doo with OSHA now....you guys should be seeing a rash of these rascals going up at grain elevators all over the place.

[ problem is, far to many of these new safety devices are errected by agri-dummies who forget that side clearance rules are still in effect, put the supports to close to the track and wind up appeasing OSHA, but also violate state side clearance reg.s ---Have seen quite a few structures put up that were within 2 feet of the edge of tie! - folks like Ed on the side of a car need to be extra careful!!!!!!]

Requires harness, lanyard, proection while tied-off and you MUST have a rescue plan & equipment in place before getting into that harness (same goes for confined spaces plus a lot more permit requirements)......exemption to all of this allows M/W people to cross bridges et. al. by walking or working betweeen the rails - step outside the rail & you need a harness and lanyard.... another exemption is if you are a bridge inspector and the harness is more of a hindrance than a safety enhancer, no harness required....

[Rick Gates]

Csx,,,Don't get your drawers in a bunch I read all and agree with it. I was simply adding where the rule comes from.

[wabash1]

csxengineer98

I like the way you are trying to get the whole answer out of rodney. you cant just read one part of the rule and that be it. all of the rule applys.

[csxengineer98]

rick
on csx they institued a 2 strikes and your out police on some issues..and fall protection is one of them....
and the next time i go to work and look.... i said that becouse if it dosnt applay to day to day opporations of T&E emplyees.... i dont know it...MOW and Car knockers are not the same craft....as you should know.....so the critical life rules that apply to them are not the same ones that apply to me......
so once agin...... READ ALL THAT I SAY..NOT JUST A FEW WORDS.... how hard is that to understand...
some people
csx engineer

[Rick Gates]

and for MOW workers..failer to be use fall protection....(being tied off with a rope to prevent hiting the ground when working above sertain feet)
i forget the last one...but ill look next time i report for duty..lol....
csx engineer This actually comes from outside RR perview and is covered by 29CFR 1926.104a-f OSHA Standards for safety harnesses and lanyards. These levels are for 8 ft' above the ground but may be less on a state by state basis.

[csxengineer98]

rodney
under GCOR rules..can the dispatcher give you permistion by the Stop inication?
csx engineer

[Rodney Beck]

Red does mean stop at the absolute signal if the signal is red at an intermiedat the rule as per gcor is stop and procede if the signal is red and the train is on a grade procede at restricted speed as per gcor. Rodney conductor BNSF

[Anonymous]

I would like to have a scanner

[csxengineer98]

that amtrash story brings up another way you can go by a red signal with out stoping ..or even haveing to do restricted speed...
A SIGNAL SUSPENTION
if the signal system is suspened...trains will run like they do back in the old days..and they way they still run on terriroty that is dark (no signals)...on csx its called DTC terriroty... where you get a DTC block....from what i understand..its like a NORAC Form D movement permint form...someone that knows about NORAC rules could help clearify it....
but to get back to how a signal suspention works... basicly from the start of the area where the signals are out of service..to the point where they start in service agin..even if the signals are displaying any indication......they can be passed at track speed..not excedding 49 mph on freight..and 59 on passinger..... as long as the train approches the first signal back in service preparied to stop...or as far as the dispatcher has given the train permistion to go...
csx engineer

[ironhorseman]

This also should bring up some safety points.

Just because the light is red doesn't mean the train is going to stop or that a train ain't coming. Just look at all the reasons above, things like getting permission or passing at restricted speed. Some other instances may be the engineer wasn't paying attention or there was a mechanical failure in which the train couldn't stop.

My dad and I talk about the trains and he lets me know what he saw and when he saw and all and what colors the signal lights are at times. I try to tell him that just because the light is red doen't mean a train isn't coming. The train could come and stop like I've seen many times before. And for any idiot that thinks they can be on the tracks and be safe just because the signal is red has got another think coming. Just look at all the reasons people posted above. The odds of a train coming and passing a red signal are low, but it still can happen.