samfp1943Thanks, Convicted One! That information sure helps to bring the history of the area ino a clear focus
You are very welcome samfp1943, And just to give props where they are due, thanks to Kalmbach too, for fixing the search feature, which made digging this thread out of the bulk even possible.
bn13814The Pennsylvania RR let TP&W handle most east-west traffic for them between East Peoria and Effner. The Penn Central merger in 1968 led to the diversion of the small amount of through traffic still handled by the PRR Terre Haute - Farmdale Jct. line to the Peoria & Eastern. A portion of the line between Atlanta and Waynesville was embargoed after a 1973 washout. The Maroa - Farmdale Jct. portion was then sold to Illinois Terminal on April 1, 1976. IT was a north-south oriented Regional. Conrail closed the Olin (IN) to Crawfordsville (IN) segment of the former Peoria & Eastern (operated by New York Central and predecessor Big Four since 1890) Indianapolis - Pekin mainline in 1981 after it was discovered the Wabash River was undercutting the railroad bridge spanning it. The daily pair of manifests - INPE and PEIN - were diverted via Terre Haute. Flooding caused washouts near Mackinaw in the fall of 1983, which led to a permanent diversion of INPE and PEIN to the Norfolk & Western west of Bloomington sometime in 1984. Conrail put the "Pekin Secondary" up for sale in 1991, but took it off the block after talks with Pioneer Railcorp fell through in 1992. The lines were for sale again in 1995 and after sale to Norfolk Southern of the Bloomington - Urbana segment the following year, Conrail replaced direct service to Peoria with a haulage deal (NS handled there traffic between Lafayette and East Peoria) lasting to the breakup in 1999. Norfolk & Western decided to close the Lafayette - Gibson City section of its old NKP line to through traffic in late 1986, rerouting everything via Decatur (not Chicago) instead. classification of Peoria and Bloomington-Normal traffic at Decatur made sense because both north-south traffic inherited from ITC in 1982 and east-west former NKP traffic could be handled there. The TP&W served as a major east-west bridge route from 1927 to 1981. It's eastern connection with Conrail at Logansport (shifted from Penn Central at Effner in 1976, after acquiring the former PRR Effner Branch that year) was cut off after Conrail canceled joint rates that made Logansport an interchange point. Most rates included the Santa Fe as well, but TP&W interchanged much traffic generated in the Peoria area with Conrail as well. Ironically, the Conrail Transaction has somewhat restored TP&W's eastern outlet, though rather than being NS at Logansport, the shortline's major eastern interchange is with CSXT at Lafayette. Railroads began de-emphasizing Peoria as a major Gateway following the C&NW's takeover of the M&StL in 1960. That diverted a large chunk of business away from the NKP, NYC, TP&W and even PRR. Improved connections at Chicago betwen eastern and western roads caused the CB&Q and NYC to reduce their Peoria interchange by the late 1960's. The N&W+NKP+WAB merger led to N&W trying to bypass the TP&W and interchange directly with the AT&SF at Kansas City. Reduced traffic and deferred maintenance led to fewer trains on the N&W Peoria District from 1965. A decline in perishable and meat traffic (diversion to COFC and trucks) cut out a lot of CB&Q-N&W interchange by 1970. By 1970, TP&W was the only carrier here handling a significant amount of east-west overhead traffic. P&E and N&W were mainly (though not entirely) dependent on traffic moving to and from the Peoria-Pekin Switching District. N&W did, however, have a small, but steady amout of interchange with BN through the decade (forest products, sand, frozen foods, aluminum ingots, etc.). With deregulation, railroads canceled joint tariffs and transit rates and closed many interchange points. Conrail expected to increase its line-haul by cutting TP&W from the eastbound routing of Caterpillar machinery and parts after after canceling rates favoring the Logansport Gateway in 1981, but instead lost that business to Norfolk & Western. CR never recovered and shortly would reduce its service to alternate days and eliminate through train service altogether c. 1992. Locals out of Danville (Hillery) made runs to East Peoria thereafter. N&W/NS lost business when they diverted Peoria and Bloomington-Normal traffic via Decatur in 1986 but began building it back by the 1990's. Diversion of traffic via Decatur didn't stop them from shifting most BNSF interchange at Chicago to Peoria in 1995. That move doubled train service on both the NS and BNSF lines to Peoria. Unfortunately, the Conrail Transaction gave NS an alternative and the heavy BNSF traffic was diverted away from Peoria. Norfolk Southern's service issues following the Conrail breakup led to the discontinuance of their local intermodal service, which TP&W and CN happily snatched up. The Conrail breakup led to the end of Conrail haulage service to Peoria but it increased TP&W-CSXT routings. Currently, competitive single-line NS and joint TP&W-CSXT routings are available to Peoria area shippers. There's some limited CN traffic to and from the east, mostly Michigan and Canada. Also, joint TP&W-CN intermodal service routes Caterpillar parts to Europe via the Port of Halifax. DPJ
Conrail closed the Olin (IN) to Crawfordsville (IN) segment of the former Peoria & Eastern (operated by New York Central and predecessor Big Four since 1890) Indianapolis - Pekin mainline in 1981 after it was discovered the Wabash River was undercutting the railroad bridge spanning it. The daily pair of manifests - INPE and PEIN - were diverted via Terre Haute. Flooding caused washouts near Mackinaw in the fall of 1983, which led to a permanent diversion of INPE and PEIN to the Norfolk & Western west of Bloomington sometime in 1984. Conrail put the "Pekin Secondary" up for sale in 1991, but took it off the block after talks with Pioneer Railcorp fell through in 1992. The lines were for sale again in 1995 and after sale to Norfolk Southern of the Bloomington - Urbana segment the following year, Conrail replaced direct service to Peoria with a haulage deal (NS handled there traffic between Lafayette and East Peoria) lasting to the breakup in 1999.
Norfolk & Western decided to close the Lafayette - Gibson City section of its old NKP line to through traffic in late 1986, rerouting everything via Decatur (not Chicago) instead. classification of Peoria and Bloomington-Normal traffic at Decatur made sense because both north-south traffic inherited from ITC in 1982 and east-west former NKP traffic could be handled there.
The TP&W served as a major east-west bridge route from 1927 to 1981. It's eastern connection with Conrail at Logansport (shifted from Penn Central at Effner in 1976, after acquiring the former PRR Effner Branch that year) was cut off after Conrail canceled joint rates that made Logansport an interchange point. Most rates included the Santa Fe as well, but TP&W interchanged much traffic generated in the Peoria area with Conrail as well. Ironically, the Conrail Transaction has somewhat restored TP&W's eastern outlet, though rather than being NS at Logansport, the shortline's major eastern interchange is with CSXT at Lafayette.
Railroads began de-emphasizing Peoria as a major Gateway following the C&NW's takeover of the M&StL in 1960. That diverted a large chunk of business away from the NKP, NYC, TP&W and even PRR. Improved connections at Chicago betwen eastern and western roads caused the CB&Q and NYC to reduce their Peoria interchange by the late 1960's. The N&W+NKP+WAB merger led to N&W trying to bypass the TP&W and interchange directly with the AT&SF at Kansas City. Reduced traffic and deferred maintenance led to fewer trains on the N&W Peoria District from 1965. A decline in perishable and meat traffic (diversion to COFC and trucks) cut out a lot of CB&Q-N&W interchange by 1970.
By 1970, TP&W was the only carrier here handling a significant amount of east-west overhead traffic. P&E and N&W were mainly (though not entirely) dependent on traffic moving to and from the Peoria-Pekin Switching District. N&W did, however, have a small, but steady amout of interchange with BN through the decade (forest products, sand, frozen foods, aluminum ingots, etc.).
With deregulation, railroads canceled joint tariffs and transit rates and closed many interchange points. Conrail expected to increase its line-haul by cutting TP&W from the eastbound routing of Caterpillar machinery and parts after after canceling rates favoring the Logansport Gateway in 1981, but instead lost that business to Norfolk & Western. CR never recovered and shortly would reduce its service to alternate days and eliminate through train service altogether c. 1992. Locals out of Danville (Hillery) made runs to East Peoria thereafter.
N&W/NS lost business when they diverted Peoria and Bloomington-Normal traffic via Decatur in 1986 but began building it back by the 1990's. Diversion of traffic via Decatur didn't stop them from shifting most BNSF interchange at Chicago to Peoria in 1995. That move doubled train service on both the NS and BNSF lines to Peoria. Unfortunately, the Conrail Transaction gave NS an alternative and the heavy BNSF traffic was diverted away from Peoria.
Norfolk Southern's service issues following the Conrail breakup led to the discontinuance of their local intermodal service, which TP&W and CN happily snatched up. The Conrail breakup led to the end of Conrail haulage service to Peoria but it increased TP&W-CSXT routings.
Currently, competitive single-line NS and joint TP&W-CSXT routings are available to Peoria area shippers. There's some limited CN traffic to and from the east, mostly Michigan and Canada. Also, joint TP&W-CN intermodal service routes Caterpillar parts to Europe via the Port of Halifax. DPJ
FWIW, I found this reply to be among the most comprehensive and informative out of the bunch, and provides a good background to answer the question in the other thread about TPW/Watseka.
Hats off again for bn13814
Regarding Peoria passenger service, don't forget the ?Zipper" story in the October 2017 issue of Trains.
Convicted One nanaimo73 nanaimo73 wrote the following post 12 years ago: Convicted One wrote: I was reading an excellent book on the expansion and contraction of the PRR and related entities last night, and the author was talking about how the PRR (at first) envisioned the line to Peoria as a Chicago bypass, until other priorities rose to the forefront. Heineman tried to build a Chicago bypass by adding the TP&W to his M&StL. PRR found out and got TP&W first, forcing Heineman over to the C&NW, and saving it from being swallowed by the CMSP&P And, just working from (somewhat cloudy) memory, I don't believe that the NS line is intact all the way east from Peoria, any longer..perhaps they still get there, but not via the one time east bound main. It only goes to Gibson City, and then trackage rights on CN(IC) are used to Chicago. I had thought that B&O had at one time had a (NW-SE running) line across Illinois that was abandoned too...wasn't sure if that was a Peoria route as well. B&O did have the Alton (1929-1943), which reached Peoria from the south on a line which is gone now. B&O proper connected with that line in Springfield. I would guess B&O used IT, or perhaps C&IM, to reach Peoria after 1943. The old line from Pekin thru Tremont- who's line was that? That was the NYC (P&E) line, which had trackage rights north from Pekin. and, There is another line that ran due south out of Pekin, toward Springfield...is that the IC line you mention? C&NW, C&IM and Alton/GM&O connected Peoria and Springfield. IC's (now CN's) line went through Decatur to Evansville, and for awhile, all the way to Nashville. There is also a line that runs from Morton thru Mackinaw..is that line still active? Both PRR and IT went between Morton and Mackinaw, both of which are gone. There is, or was, a line from Morton to the NS/NKP at Crandall, which TP&W has/had, that was Alton/GM&O thanks in advance And then there was the Wabash, which may have used parent PRR, sibling TP&W, partially owned IT, or even the C&IM to reach Peoria. Just thought I'd bump this old thread. The historical aspect appears to key in nicely with the other thread where there is discussion about Peoria/TPW
nanaimo73 nanaimo73 wrote the following post 12 years ago: Convicted One wrote: I was reading an excellent book on the expansion and contraction of the PRR and related entities last night, and the author was talking about how the PRR (at first) envisioned the line to Peoria as a Chicago bypass, until other priorities rose to the forefront. Heineman tried to build a Chicago bypass by adding the TP&W to his M&StL. PRR found out and got TP&W first, forcing Heineman over to the C&NW, and saving it from being swallowed by the CMSP&P And, just working from (somewhat cloudy) memory, I don't believe that the NS line is intact all the way east from Peoria, any longer..perhaps they still get there, but not via the one time east bound main. It only goes to Gibson City, and then trackage rights on CN(IC) are used to Chicago. I had thought that B&O had at one time had a (NW-SE running) line across Illinois that was abandoned too...wasn't sure if that was a Peoria route as well. B&O did have the Alton (1929-1943), which reached Peoria from the south on a line which is gone now. B&O proper connected with that line in Springfield. I would guess B&O used IT, or perhaps C&IM, to reach Peoria after 1943. The old line from Pekin thru Tremont- who's line was that? That was the NYC (P&E) line, which had trackage rights north from Pekin. and, There is another line that ran due south out of Pekin, toward Springfield...is that the IC line you mention? C&NW, C&IM and Alton/GM&O connected Peoria and Springfield. IC's (now CN's) line went through Decatur to Evansville, and for awhile, all the way to Nashville. There is also a line that runs from Morton thru Mackinaw..is that line still active? Both PRR and IT went between Morton and Mackinaw, both of which are gone. There is, or was, a line from Morton to the NS/NKP at Crandall, which TP&W has/had, that was Alton/GM&O thanks in advance And then there was the Wabash, which may have used parent PRR, sibling TP&W, partially owned IT, or even the C&IM to reach Peoria.
Just thought I'd bump this old thread. The historical aspect appears to key in nicely with the other thread where there is discussion about Peoria/TPW
Thanks, Convicted One! That information sure helps to bring the history of the area ino a clear focus...Particularly, in this day and time when our history seem to be under 'attack', and the 'scrubbing' of it seems so prevalent these days.
to paraphrase George Santayana :"...History shows that both those who do not know history, and those who do learn from history are doomed to repeat it..."
And while I am I think thaat the following post on the Thread "Abandoned Track" is not only appropriate here....Bit of an interesting first-hand, piece of history.. Thank you to Falcon48 :
"...I've written about Tennessee Pass before, since I was involved in the abandonment proceedings and subsequent developments up to my retirement.
To repeat what I've said before, UP's original intention for the Tennessee Pass line between Canon City and Gypsum was to abandon it after the acquisition and integration of SP. The major service crisis UP experienced when it tried to integrate SP too quickly caused UP to reevalute its planned abandonments of lines that represented potential future capacity. even if there appeared to be no current use for them. Several lines were taken off the abandonment hit list because of this consideration, including Tennessee Pass. Under current law, if a railroad gets STB authority to "discontinue" service on a rail line, it can later restore the line to service without any regulatory approval or environmental evaluation. But rebuilding a fully "abandoned" rail line is like building a new one - it would take years just to get the environmental clearances and regulatory approvals.
"... As a practical matter, as some other posts have already said, once its gone, its gone for good..."
[quote user="Convicted One"]
gabe I stand with others in my amazement that more of an effort has not been used to rerout traffic through Peoria--or the Kankakee belt for that matter. Gabe
[/quote]
I'd add another couple of names to that question:
I miss nanaimo73, wanswheel, zardoz, to start!
gabeI stand with others in my amazement that more of an effort has not been used to rerout traffic through Peoria--or the Kankakee belt for that matter. Gabe
Wonder whatever happened to old Gabe?
nanaimo73nanaimo73 wrote the following post 12 years ago: Convicted One wrote: I was reading an excellent book on the expansion and contraction of the PRR and related entities last night, and the author was talking about how the PRR (at first) envisioned the line to Peoria as a Chicago bypass, until other priorities rose to the forefront. Heineman tried to build a Chicago bypass by adding the TP&W to his M&StL. PRR found out and got TP&W first, forcing Heineman over to the C&NW, and saving it from being swallowed by the CMSP&P And, just working from (somewhat cloudy) memory, I don't believe that the NS line is intact all the way east from Peoria, any longer..perhaps they still get there, but not via the one time east bound main. It only goes to Gibson City, and then trackage rights on CN(IC) are used to Chicago. I had thought that B&O had at one time had a (NW-SE running) line across Illinois that was abandoned too...wasn't sure if that was a Peoria route as well. B&O did have the Alton (1929-1943), which reached Peoria from the south on a line which is gone now. B&O proper connected with that line in Springfield. I would guess B&O used IT, or perhaps C&IM, to reach Peoria after 1943. The old line from Pekin thru Tremont- who's line was that? That was the NYC (P&E) line, which had trackage rights north from Pekin. and, There is another line that ran due south out of Pekin, toward Springfield...is that the IC line you mention? C&NW, C&IM and Alton/GM&O connected Peoria and Springfield. IC's (now CN's) line went through Decatur to Evansville, and for awhile, all the way to Nashville. There is also a line that runs from Morton thru Mackinaw..is that line still active? Both PRR and IT went between Morton and Mackinaw, both of which are gone. There is, or was, a line from Morton to the NS/NKP at Crandall, which TP&W has/had, that was Alton/GM&O thanks in advance And then there was the Wabash, which may have used parent PRR, sibling TP&W, partially owned IT, or even the C&IM to reach Peoria.
Murphy Siding wrote: Where does TP&W fit in this picture, now, and in the past?
I don't expect to see a revival of the Prairie Marksman route.
The Midwest High Speed Rail Association's map (http://www.midwesthsr.org/il_fastTrack.htm) shows what appears to be the former Rock Island route to both Peoria and the Quad Cities. Peoria - St. Louis is also shown, probably via Union Pacific-IMRR to existing route at Springfield.
The end of 2007 date is what I've heard, but the source could be wrong.
Poppa_Zit wrote: In several episodes of Fibber McGee & Molly, a train whistle was heard in the background, causing McGee to declare suddenly "Sounds like the Express is on time!" Supposedly, the main line ran near 79 Wistful Vista Lane in Peoria.Have no idea where it was going.
In several episodes of Fibber McGee & Molly, a train whistle was heard in the background, causing McGee to declare suddenly "Sounds like the Express is on time!" Supposedly, the main line ran near 79 Wistful Vista Lane in Peoria.
Have no idea where it was going.
Somewhere I thought I read that Fibber McGee & Molly was associated with the M&StL and its Kickapoo Hill at Peroia.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Amtrak is supposed to release a feasibility study by the end of the year as to whether Chicago - Peoria service is feasible, and also what it would cost. After that, public support is crucial to getting it.
The feasibility study to be released by Amtrak before the end of 2007 is for Chicago to Quad Cities service. Illinois DOT may have requested a study for service to Peoria, that study is not part of the study to be completed in 2007.
CShaveRR wrote: dknelson wrote: nanaimo73 wrote: As for using Peoria today as a Chicago bypass, it seems useless to UP, as their C&NW, MP/C&EI and SP/GM&O lines go around the city. BNSF is a different matter however. They route everything to Galesburg, and have a direct Galesburg-Peoria line. Actually the UP is upgrading the line from Nelson to Peoria and an interchange with the BNSF (former Santa Fe) at Edelstein (near the famous Edelstein Hill) has been installed. There is some talk of double tracking the line. The BNSF itself makes rather limited use of its line to Peoria compared to a few years ago.Don't expect the UP to upgrade the line below Edelstein. Although an upgraded line to the north would improve service to Peoria, I doubt that that is in the plan--as of now, the normal position of the connection switch is toward BNSF, not toward Peoria.
dknelson wrote: nanaimo73 wrote: As for using Peoria today as a Chicago bypass, it seems useless to UP, as their C&NW, MP/C&EI and SP/GM&O lines go around the city. BNSF is a different matter however. They route everything to Galesburg, and have a direct Galesburg-Peoria line. Actually the UP is upgrading the line from Nelson to Peoria and an interchange with the BNSF (former Santa Fe) at Edelstein (near the famous Edelstein Hill) has been installed. There is some talk of double tracking the line. The BNSF itself makes rather limited use of its line to Peoria compared to a few years ago.
nanaimo73 wrote: As for using Peoria today as a Chicago bypass, it seems useless to UP, as their C&NW, MP/C&EI and SP/GM&O lines go around the city. BNSF is a different matter however. They route everything to Galesburg, and have a direct Galesburg-Peoria line.
Actually the UP is upgrading the line from Nelson to Peoria and an interchange with the BNSF (former Santa Fe) at Edelstein (near the famous Edelstein Hill) has been installed. There is some talk of double tracking the line. The BNSF itself makes rather limited use of its line to Peoria compared to a few years ago.
Don't expect the UP to upgrade the line below Edelstein. Although an upgraded line to the north would improve service to Peoria, I doubt that that is in the plan--as of now, the normal position of the connection switch is toward BNSF, not toward Peoria.
UP plans to double track the Peoria Sub north of Edelstein and install CTC to accommodate reportedly several daily stack and automotive trains in each direction. The portion of the Peoria Sub from the top of Pioneer Hill (Track 2 only on double track portion) to South Pekin was upgraded with heavy cwr in 2002. South Pekin Siding was upgraded with heavier cwr the same year. Thousands of crossties (55,000 IIRC) were replaced that year between South Pekin and Barr for 40mph speeds.
BNSF's Peoria Sub has been allowed to deteriorate. Many crossties are in poor condition and the situation has created a wide gauge problem on portions of the line. Track speeds are mostly 10mph with some 5mph sections. It's kind of sad given the variety of traffic (several coal trains per week, CN haulage grain trains, tri-weekly TP&W Galesburg Job, etc.). The slow speeds keep the track from looking bad. A rehab may occur in the near future.
nanaimo73 wrote:Has there been any talk of bringing Amtrak Service back to Peoria ?
It must have been a Rock Island train to or from Chicago. At the time of that radio program no other road ran a passenger train (ITC excepted) into Peoria that could be called an "express" by any stretch of the imagination. For a city its size when it came to passenger service "neglected" would be the right adjective to describe Peoria.
Mark
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
KCSfan wrote: The Pennsy was unargurably at one time very aggressive an pursued every opportunity to upstage its arch rival the NYC. The best examples of this were their contol of the Wabash and N&W. While I always balked a bit at their self proclaimed title as the "Standard Railroad" they were undeniably a mega-railroad. One can only imagine how great they would be today if they could have survived and avoided the Penn Central debacle.Mark
The Pennsy was unargurably at one time very aggressive an pursued every opportunity to upstage its arch rival the NYC. The best examples of this were their contol of the Wabash and N&W. While I always balked a bit at their self proclaimed title as the "Standard Railroad" they were undeniably a mega-railroad. One can only imagine how great they would be today if they could have survived and avoided the Penn Central debacle.
It might have been interesting (from a Peoria railroading perspective) if Jay Gould had maintained control of the TP&W as well, instead of losing it to reorganization maneuvers.
People often claim that his purchase of the narrow guage Havana, Rantoul, and Eastern made no sense. But looking at the map (and speculating) it sure could have been upgraded to standard guage and extended to Peoria for anyone determined to enter the Peoria market. Which is just the style of expansion he seemed to prefer. (or spite, when suspecting that as a motive among his competitors)
As for using Peoria today as a Chicago bypass, it seems useless to UP, as their C&NW, MP/C&EI and SP/GM&O lines go around the city. BNSF is a different matter however. They route everything to Galesburg, and have a direct Galesburg-Peoria line.
Dave Nelson
Convicted One wrote: KCSfan wrote: To say that the Pennsy ran into Peoria is akin to saying it ran to Kansas City by virtue of its one time control of the Wabash.Mark Pondering further your analogy of the PRR "reaching" Kansas City via it's control over the Wabash, You might be supporting my earlier position, more than detracting from it. Consider where Wabash Presidents Norman Pitcairn, Herman Pevler, and Henry Large came from, do you think for a moment that there was no intent to influence there?Further, look at the conditions surrounding the Pennsy's acquisition of wabash control. Culminating the nearly decade long reorganization proceedings that the Wabash underwent during the 1930's and early 1940's, the PRR's ultimately proposed solution was for it to purchase all or at least the majority of Wabash's capital stock. Immediate and heated objections from the NYC, Pittsburgh & Lake Erie, and others followed, protesting that "such a union would create a PRR of such an overwhelming size and power as to overshadow all other railroad systems in the eastern territory".. After much deliberation, the ICC officially commented on August 7, 1941 that--" The Lines of the Wabash are naturally complimentary to those of the Pennsylvania and together form a direct route from Kansas City to the Eastern Seaboard , avoiding the congested terminal areas of St Louis and Chicago. Such a route under a coordinated arrangement is of particular importance at the present time. The control sought also will be desirable from the standpoint of an amalgamation of weak to strong roads"--(1) In September 1941 the final roadblock to the PRR's outright control was overcome, when Judge Davis endorsed what the ICC had already approved. . Obviously The PRR did work in strange ways. And the ICC seemed to both recognize this, as well as to not particularly care. As I said earlier, I'd think it foolish to ever underestimate them, or their ambitions. PRR acquisitions make very interesting reading, indeed. (1) New York Times August 7, 1941
KCSfan wrote: To say that the Pennsy ran into Peoria is akin to saying it ran to Kansas City by virtue of its one time control of the Wabash.Mark
To say that the Pennsy ran into Peoria is akin to saying it ran to Kansas City by virtue of its one time control of the Wabash.
Pondering further your analogy of the PRR "reaching" Kansas City via it's control over the Wabash, You might be supporting my earlier position, more than detracting from it.
Consider where Wabash Presidents Norman Pitcairn, Herman Pevler, and Henry Large came from, do you think for a moment that there was no intent to influence there?
Further, look at the conditions surrounding the Pennsy's acquisition of wabash control. Culminating the nearly decade long reorganization proceedings that the Wabash underwent during the 1930's and early 1940's, the PRR's ultimately proposed solution was for it to purchase all or at least the majority of Wabash's capital stock. Immediate and heated objections from the NYC, Pittsburgh & Lake Erie, and others followed, protesting that "such a union would create a PRR of such an overwhelming size and power as to overshadow all other railroad systems in the eastern territory".. After much deliberation, the ICC officially commented on August 7, 1941 that--" The Lines of the Wabash are naturally complimentary to those of the Pennsylvania and together form a direct route from Kansas City to the Eastern Seaboard , avoiding the congested terminal areas of St Louis and Chicago. Such a route under a coordinated arrangement is of particular importance at the present time. The control sought also will be desirable from the standpoint of an amalgamation of weak to strong roads"--(1)
In September 1941 the final roadblock to the PRR's outright control was overcome, when Judge Davis endorsed what the ICC had already approved. . Obviously The PRR did work in strange ways. And the ICC seemed to both recognize this, as well as to not particularly care.
As I said earlier, I'd think it foolish to ever underestimate them, or their ambitions. PRR acquisitions make very interesting reading, indeed.
(1) New York Times August 7, 1941
nordique72 wrote: Whoa- we have to stop before going any further- we're confusing the personalities of three seperate Peoria lines here! The line through Lincoln was not the former PRR- the Pennsy crossed the GM&O at Atlanta- the lines that crossed the GM&O at Lincoln was the original interurban IT main line (a small piece of which still exists in town, used by UP to serve local industry in town) and the IC's Peoria line from Mount Pulaski. As I recall the NS never much used the old "Pennsy Secondary" after taking control of the IT in 1982- the last locals ran on it in 1987, and in 1987/1988 abandonment proceedings were filed in sections, finally it was torn out by 1989. I remember seeing the rails freshly ripped from the ties on the roadbed from the I-55 overpass at Atlanta in the fall of that year. To clarify IT traffic was diverted off the old IT "Pennsy Secondary" to the NKP line- where the traffic was originally operated in through freights to Frankfort, IN. When the NKP was abandoned Gibson City- Lafayette in 1986- traffic was then rerouted south to Decatur via the former Wabash main at Gibson City- instead of going out to Frankfort (the old NKP division point) via a pair of local freights. The former Pennsy line angled southeast from Morton- crossing the GM&O at Atlanta, while the original ITC main line south from Morton crossed the GM&O at Lincoln. The NS/N&W never owned or operated the part of the original ITC line where the bridge collapse happened in 1977- from what I recall the ITC had torn that out before the N&W operational merger in 1982.
Whoa- we have to stop before going any further- we're confusing the personalities of three seperate Peoria lines here! The line through Lincoln was not the former PRR- the Pennsy crossed the GM&O at Atlanta- the lines that crossed the GM&O at Lincoln was the original interurban IT main line (a small piece of which still exists in town, used by UP to serve local industry in town) and the IC's Peoria line from Mount Pulaski.
As I recall the NS never much used the old "Pennsy Secondary" after taking control of the IT in 1982- the last locals ran on it in 1987, and in 1987/1988 abandonment proceedings were filed in sections, finally it was torn out by 1989. I remember seeing the rails freshly ripped from the ties on the roadbed from the I-55 overpass at Atlanta in the fall of that year.
To clarify IT traffic was diverted off the old IT "Pennsy Secondary" to the NKP line- where the traffic was originally operated in through freights to Frankfort, IN. When the NKP was abandoned Gibson City- Lafayette in 1986- traffic was then rerouted south to Decatur via the former Wabash main at Gibson City- instead of going out to Frankfort (the old NKP division point) via a pair of local freights. The former Pennsy line angled southeast from Morton- crossing the GM&O at Atlanta, while the original ITC main line south from Morton crossed the GM&O at Lincoln. The NS/N&W never owned or operated the part of the original ITC line where the bridge collapse happened in 1977- from what I recall the ITC had torn that out before the N&W operational merger in 1982.
The old ITC alternate-day trains 200 and 201 still handled what little remained of "through traffic" but these trains started running via the current Decatur - Bement - Gibson City - East Peoria routing (requiring a runaround manuever at Gibson City in each direction) in March-May 1982 before being discontinued. Shortly after the operational merger between N&W and ITC (May 8, 1982), N&W embargoed the Peoria Secondary between Minier and South Morton account of a deteriorating bridge at Mackinaw. Local service to Minier was provided by an as-needed job out of Decatur while Morton customers were switched by a tri-weekly night job out of East Peoria (using a borrowed SW-1500 from TP&W!). This probably didn't last long before westbound FP-65 began making a side trip to Morton. Dunlop Tire kept N&W in Morton until the late 1980's. The other portion of the line saw its last train in winter 1987-1988.
I doubt former ITC traffic was routed via Frankfort, Indiana; more than likely Frankfort-bound PF-62 made a setout at Gibson City and counterpart FP-65 made a pickup there. I could be wrong, but that would have otherwise quadrupled mileage for some traffic! Most remaining ITC traffic was corn germ routed Keokuk, Iowa to Decatur, which continues to the present day.
DPJ
MP173 wrote: bn13814:That was quite a historical view of Peoria/Central Illinois traffic patterns. Thanks.What is the status of the former IC line from Peoria to Decatur. I assume there is a daily each way. Is there also grain trains off of the BNSF from Dubuque?ed
bn13814:That was quite a historical view of Peoria/Central Illinois traffic patterns. Thanks.
What is the status of the former IC line from Peoria to Decatur. I assume there is a daily each way. Is there also grain trains off of the BNSF from Dubuque?
ed
CN runs a "Peoria Local" called at Grand Avenue Yard in Decatur at 1:00pm daily. Mostly manifest and local traffic is handled but sometimes grain and coal trains will be run instead. The train is officially called "L56491." The local runs to Mount Pulaski where it makes a setout for the, and a pickup (Peoria-bound traffic coming via Chicago) from the Clinton-Cockrell Station local. Amerhart and Hanna Steel are sometimes served on Pekin's southside before entering the Tazewell & Peoria RR at IC Jucntion for the final leg to East Peoria. The inbound train is dropped and the outbound train is readied for departure. Sometimes, Amerhart is switched on the southbound trip.
If grain elevators need cars, empties are hauled northbound to a siding at South Pekin (recently shortened to the crossover south of Main St.) then picked up southbound delivered to elevators at Delavan (25), Emden (22), Hartsburg (5) or Chestervale (1 to 3).
The Iowa to Decatur grain trains, the weekly (?) BNSF coal train for ADM in Decatur, the occasional Decatur to Summerfield, Texas feed train and the weekly IAIS-bound coal train add a good traffic mix. There can be two to four trains per day.
"Your detailed account was very informative, and much appreciated.
When you say that NS rerouted Peoria traffic through Decatur, is that the Line that runs through Lincoln?"
The NS route was the former NKP between East Peoria and Gibson City, the former WAB between Gibson City and Bement and the WAB mainline into Decatur. CN's Peoria - Decatur - Mattoon line runs through Lincoln.
Convicted One wrote: CSSHEGEWISCH wrote:The B&O line in question ran through Decatur and Springfield, and terminated in Beardstown, of all places. Beardstown was the westernmost point on the B&O system, slightly west of St. Louis.Interesting..thanks...any idea "why beardstown?"? was this a route intended to points farther west that was just never completed?
CSSHEGEWISCH wrote:The B&O line in question ran through Decatur and Springfield, and terminated in Beardstown, of all places. Beardstown was the westernmost point on the B&O system, slightly west of St. Louis.
Interesting..thanks...any idea "why beardstown?"? was this a route intended to points farther west that was just never completed?
The end point at Beardstown linked it to CB&Q, and later BN until that line was abandoned sometime in the 1980s.
gabe wrote: Convicted One wrote: Thanks again.. So you say "ITC", does that mean it's a former interurban line?Yes. It started its existence as the ITC ("Illinois Traction Company") and became the Illinois Terminal Railway, I believe in the late 50s. The ITC/IT story is a good one. For a regional, it had a heck of a traffic base. It had considerable Peoria bridge traffic, to say nothing of the Peoria industries, ADM in Decatur, ample access to grain elevators, substantial coal on the line, and a petro-chemical business in Roxana. But, razor-thin street car rails and several towns that objected to 4-diesel 130 car trains going down mainstreet at all hours of the day and night never really gave the IT a fighting chance to make it in today's rail world. When some of its bridges started collapsing--namely the one in Peoria--that was the beginning of the end.I always wondered what was the more valuale line for the IT, Springfiled to Peoria or Springfield to Decatur/Champain/Danville. I think the IT had a lot more interchange traffic at Peoria, but ADM had to be a pretty valuable asset in Decatur.I often wonder if the IT could have survived were it not for its street car heritage. My bet is yes. It would have made a nice fit with CSX pre-Conrail in the merger game.Gabe
Convicted One wrote: Thanks again.. So you say "ITC", does that mean it's a former interurban line?
Thanks again..
So you say "ITC", does that mean it's a former interurban line?
Yes. It started its existence as the ITC ("Illinois Traction Company") and became the Illinois Terminal Railway, I believe in the late 50s. The ITC/IT story is a good one. For a regional, it had a heck of a traffic base. It had considerable Peoria bridge traffic, to say nothing of the Peoria industries, ADM in Decatur, ample access to grain elevators, substantial coal on the line, and a petro-chemical business in Roxana.
But, razor-thin street car rails and several towns that objected to 4-diesel 130 car trains going down mainstreet at all hours of the day and night never really gave the IT a fighting chance to make it in today's rail world. When some of its bridges started collapsing--namely the one in Peoria--that was the beginning of the end.
I always wondered what was the more valuale line for the IT, Springfiled to Peoria or Springfield to Decatur/Champain/Danville. I think the IT had a lot more interchange traffic at Peoria, but ADM had to be a pretty valuable asset in Decatur.
I often wonder if the IT could have survived were it not for its street car heritage. My bet is yes. It would have made a nice fit with CSX pre-Conrail in the merger game.
Gabe
Gabe,
Actually the name was changed from Illinois Traction to Illinois Terminal sometime prior to 1950. I rode round trip from Danville to Decatur on the last day before the line was abandoned between Ogden and Danville which IIRC was in 1950 and it had been the Illinois Terminal for some years prior to that. I don't know exactly when the name change took place but it was probably in the 40's or maybe even the late 30's when the interurbans all lost so much of their passenger traffic to automobile competetion and the emphasis shifted to freight traffic. The ITC never handled much freight east of Decatur on the line to Champaign and Danville in part due to the city street running in Monticello where the line went around several 90 degree street intersections. There was not enough "swing" to freight car couplers so the ITC had to use a pivoted adaptor attached to each freight car coupler to negotiate these sharp curves. The Mackinaw Jct. - Decatur line also had extensive city street running in Bloomington and never carried much freight either. The lines from Peoria and Decatur to Springfield and on to St. Louis were by far the busiest and most important segments of the ITC.
I see...thanks for the reality check
I just read a very interesting account of the multi-railroad consortium that assumed control of IT, in the book "Follow the Flag" about the Wabash .
Interesting little property indeed.
gabe wrote: The ITC/IT story is a good one. For a regional, it had a heck of a traffic base. It had considerable Peoria bridge traffic, to say nothing of the Peoria industries, ADM in Decatur, ample access to grain elevators, substantial coal on the line, and a petro-chemical business in Roxana. But, razor-thin street car rails and several towns that objected to 4-diesel 130 car trains going down mainstreet at all hours of the day and night never really gave the IT a fighting chance to make it in today's rail world. When some of its bridges started collapsing--namely the one in Peoria--that was the beginning of the end.I always wondered what was the more valuale line for the IT, Springfiled to Peoria or Springfield to Decatur/Champain/Danville. I think the IT had a lot more interchange traffic at Peoria, but ADM had to be a pretty valuable asset in Decatur.I often wonder if the IT could have survived were it not for its street car heritage. My bet is yes. It would have made a nice fit with CSX pre-Conrail in the merger game.Gabe
Sounds to me like this would be an ideal candidate for a "railroad blueprint" feature in the mag. I know I would read it.
S then, if N&W (NS) eventually took over the ITC line, was it NS that made the decision to not repair the collapsed bridge?
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