Chinese HSR

[Anonymous]

I read at this web site that the new HSR in China will cost $(US)15 billion, whereas a maglev would have cost $(US)50 billion. At 1300 kilometers, approximately 812.5 miles, the average cost per mile will be around $(US)18.5 million. This new HSR will be built using new real estate for right of way.

Florida's numbers for HSR are $12 million per mile between Orlando and Tampa, along I-4 right of way, and around $20 million per mile between Orlando and Miami, with all of the track elevated from West Palm Beach to Miami along the Florida Turnpike right of way. Florida shows there is significant savings using existing right of way.

The Texas DOT Trans Texas Corridors Plan presents HSR around $6 million per mile. However, while this appears low the TTC uses right of way already purchased and uses overpasses and underpasses combined with turnpikes, etc. Both DOTs, Florida and Texas, quote a price of $3 million per mile to electricify the tracks.

Some have questioned these numbers in the past as being low, but now China confirms these numbers...... Obviously, it costs more to build light rail in urban areas than it does to build HSR, even to a higher standard, in rural areas.....

And so much for keeping the distances below 400 miles in length. China is building HSR for twice that length, which, by the way, is near the length of my proposed parralegram from the NEC to the Midwest, to Texas, and to Florida.

IF WE USE EXISTING INTERSTATE HIGHWAYS AND/OR RAILROAD RIGHT OF WAY, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO BUILD HSR AROUND FLORIDA'S NUMBERS!

[Anonymous]

isn't HSR high-speed rail?

Florida has high speed rail? never knew that...

[Anonymous]

Florida doesn't have HSR today. However, the voters have passed a constitutional amendment to their state constitution creating a HSR authority. At present there are plans to build HSR in Florida between Orlando and Tampa and between Orlando and Miami. Two companies have already placed bids. Whether the plans ever pan out is entirely another question. Information about Florida's HSR initiative can be found at this web site:

http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/

[TH&B]

Well I for one am glad China chose the HSR instead of the maglev, a wise choice indeed, congratulations China. Otherwise I don't care too much about that place exept for their STEAM TRAINS!
ps; no Florida does NOT have HSR, they just make studies and plans for HSR, that is they talk alot about it.

[Anonymous]

When I mention I support HSR in America, many in our country are under the delusion its gonna costs trillions, when in reality a 7,000 mile network would cost in the vicinity of 100 billion. For example, using China's numbers of $18.5 million per mile a 7,000 mile network of HSR would cost less than $130 billion. A 4,000 mile parralegram backbone HSR network which I proposed would cost $74 billion. Once this national backbone network is built, some of the states might actually look into linking to it.

The state of Texas DOT advocates a plan for the next half century with the $180 billion 4,000 mile Trans Texas Corridor. Three companies have already shown interest. You can read more about it at this web site:

http://www.dot.state.tx.us/ttc/ttc_home.htm

What's $74 billion in a national budget of $2.5 trillion? Peanuts! Just cutting federal highway funding for two years will pay for it.....which, by the way, I support a moratorium on federal highway spending for two years to build HSR.

[mudchicken]

China does not have to do environmental impact statements, urban dynamic planning, intergovernmental agreements, union agreements, deal with NIMBYs and BANANAs, condemnation procedures and.......

[Anonymous]

SO that's what HSR stands for! High Speed rail!!

wow.. big learning thing going down today!

[Anonymous]

Construction Costs...
I'm curious to know about the hidden costs of HSR. It is absolutely clear that it would be cheaper to build HSR infrastructure than Maglev infrastructure...at first. It is clear that using right-of-way that's parallel to interstates saves money. I'm not exactly a physicist, but I know that interstates have some pretty tight turns as they snake around the perimeters of towns in their paths. These turns are far too tight for HSR, which must be as close to straight as possible in order to allow maximum speed. Due to Maglev's ability to take tighter turns at higher speeds through the use of extreme superelevation, Maglev guideways would require far less modification to the existing interstate system to accomodate them. With HSR, would those necessary modifications to interstates be billed to the interstate authority and, therefore, not show up on the price tag of HSR construction?

Maintenance...
Of all the "hidden" costs of HSR, maintenance is the granddaddy of them all. A penny saved now is not necessarily a penny saved later. In fact, a penny saved now is often a penny spent later. With HSR, maintenance is paramount. With HSR, maintenance is more expensive than the maintenance bill of any other railroad in the US today. With a government-subsidized HSR network of an American scale, we would have to send a humongous maintenance bill to our children and our childrens' children. When we give a gift to our children, do we give them an invoice too? Maglev will be more expensive now, but the maintenance bill will be lower. The end result is a lower cost 10, 20, 30, and more years from now. Furthermore, it will allow the highest speeds. If Maglev is going to compete with motor and air traffic, it has to have competitive convenience (lots of stations and high frequency), and it has to have competitive speeds (read, coast to coast in under 7 hours). Only Maglev and planes can do that without having their infrastructures realigned every night.

[Anonymous]

From what I read at the TGV web site maintanence costs of HSR is similiar to the costs of freight tracks. Similiar to highway, HEAVY freight causes most of the damage. Therefore, if you build passenger only tracks, even at freight speeds, the costs of maintanence would be less. It is only because HSR has to have tracks maintained at a higher level which causes the higher costs, but not much more than the costs of existing freight tracks....

Of course, this is from a European point of view. In America, we have allowed the freight companies to really degrade the tracks..... In Europe 100 mph is not considered fast, in America it is as far as railroads are concerned....

[Anonymous]

High Speed Rail trains can go over "low speed tracks", too (at restricted speed, of course, and provided they're not different gauge like in Japan), so they can share the existing infrastructure like depots, shops etc. with all the other standard gauge trains - and that's another big plus. Probably already mentioned in other debates, too.

I'm NOT anti-maglev, I'm just PRO-steel-wheel-on-steel-rail.

Have fun everyone,
Oliver

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

China does not have to do environmental impact statements, urban dynamic planning, intergovernmental agreements, union agreements, deal with NIMBYs and BANANAs, condemnation procedures and.......

I know what NIMBY means, but what is BANANA an acronym for?

Thanks

[mudchicken]

BANANA = Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything (or Anybody)

[Anonymous]

OK, I may be dreaming, but if we used exsisting right of ways, would it be possable that in the future we could have a USHSN (United States High Speed Network)? How much would it cost?