Death of a former WC intermodal train

[Anonymous]

Well guys, I think that former WC / CN intermodal train from Green Bay to Chicago and back is pretty much dead. (Formerly 218 / 219, more recently GBHA / HAGB ) They'd had a service problem for a long time. They'd get from GB to Schiller Park ok, but they de-ramped on the South Side @ the old Illinois Central Harvey Yard and it took them forever to get from Schiller to Harvey. Given that they'd get there late, they'd then miss connecting trains out of Chicago and the whole thing fell apart.

Recently the whiz kids at CN decided that this rotten service commanded a rate hike. A big, big rate hike. Observers in the Manitowoc area report significantly increased numbers of orange trailers on I-43 running between the Fox River Valley and Chicago ramps. Observers in the Appleton area aren't observing too much in the way of Intermodal trains.

The ramp at Green Bay is pretty much a ghost town as of about 2 weeks ago. There's just a few rail containers hanging around. I suppose they could drag some of that stuff up here (low priority container freight) mixed into a manifest train.

Funny how Soo and WC made this work for the last 15 or so years and CN killed it in just about a year.

[Anonymous]

Well guys, I think that former WC / CN intermodal train from Green Bay to Chicago and back is pretty much dead. (Formerly 218 / 219, more recently GBHA / HAGB ) They'd had a service problem for a long time. They'd get from GB to Schiller Park ok, but they de-ramped on the South Side @ the old Illinois Central Harvey Yard and it took them forever to get from Schiller to Harvey. Given that they'd get there late, they'd then miss connecting trains out of Chicago and the whole thing fell apart.

Recently the whiz kids at CN decided that this rotten service commanded a rate hike. A big, big rate hike. Observers in the Manitowoc area report significantly increased numbers of orange trailers on I-43 running between the Fox River Valley and Chicago ramps. Observers in the Appleton area aren't observing too much in the way of Intermodal trains.

The ramp at Green Bay is pretty much a ghost town as of about 2 weeks ago. There's just a few rail containers hanging around. I suppose they could drag some of that stuff up here (low priority container freight) mixed into a manifest train.

Funny how Soo and WC made this work for the last 15 or so years and CN killed it in just about a year.

[David3]

Well maybe the train still runs on the railroad that runs up there but I don't know who runs up there.

[David3]

Well maybe the train still runs on the railroad that runs up there but I don't know who runs up there.

[Anonymous]

Wis. Cntl. had been talking of killing that train two years before the merger. It was a high overhead train with very little profit. A truck can haul a trailer down from Green Bay to Chicago in about six hours. That is faster then what a train can do it in if you add loading and unloading times.
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Wis. Cntl. had been talking of killing that train two years before the merger. It was a high overhead train with very little profit. A truck can haul a trailer down from Green Bay to Chicago in about six hours. That is faster then what a train can do it in if you add loading and unloading times.
TIM A

[dknelson]

I always hate to see traffic lost but I agree that GB to Chicago is a rather short haul to make intermodal workable. The C&NW pretty much killed off its similar service before the UP merger. The intermodal ramp in Milwaukee was removed years ago (of course it was the very old fashioned circus style in Marsh Yard with little room for modernization).
Dave Nelson

[dknelson]

I always hate to see traffic lost but I agree that GB to Chicago is a rather short haul to make intermodal workable. The C&NW pretty much killed off its similar service before the UP merger. The intermodal ramp in Milwaukee was removed years ago (of course it was the very old fashioned circus style in Marsh Yard with little room for modernization).
Dave Nelson

[eolafan]

This Monday night I stopped and ate a Burger King at the Appleton terminal yard office and while there the signals started blinking (something coming from the North)...it was a southbound train with a DM&I SD9, along with a WC GP40 (?) and about fifty cars, about half of which were intermodals going south. Could this have been the train you folks are speaking of? This was about 7:30 pm. Jim

[eolafan]

This Monday night I stopped and ate a Burger King at the Appleton terminal yard office and while there the signals started blinking (something coming from the North)...it was a southbound train with a DM&I SD9, along with a WC GP40 (?) and about fifty cars, about half of which were intermodals going south. Could this have been the train you folks are speaking of? This was about 7:30 pm. Jim

[jsanchez]

What's a shame is short distance intermodal is really needed in this country and if railroads could find a way to do it more efficiently it could be a huge revenue generator since most truck loads are short distance. The only class 1's that seem to know how to make money on short distance intermodel are CP Rail (Toronto /Montreal) and Florida East coast (Jacksonville/Miami). I'm surpised no one is doing a Boston to Washington service or New York to Buffalo, those Interstates are parking lots most of the day in many places. Plus this would save the states tens of millions in road repairs, every year. I know New Jersey is wanting NS and CSX to look into short distance intermodal, I hope to see it happen. CN should be embarrased by destroying a service that could have been a great learning tool for them. Wall Street is demanding railroads find new sources of revenue and they've appeared to killed a potentially good one.

[jsanchez]

What's a shame is short distance intermodal is really needed in this country and if railroads could find a way to do it more efficiently it could be a huge revenue generator since most truck loads are short distance. The only class 1's that seem to know how to make money on short distance intermodel are CP Rail (Toronto /Montreal) and Florida East coast (Jacksonville/Miami). I'm surpised no one is doing a Boston to Washington service or New York to Buffalo, those Interstates are parking lots most of the day in many places. Plus this would save the states tens of millions in road repairs, every year. I know New Jersey is wanting NS and CSX to look into short distance intermodal, I hope to see it happen. CN should be embarrased by destroying a service that could have been a great learning tool for them. Wall Street is demanding railroads find new sources of revenue and they've appeared to killed a potentially good one.

[jsanchez]

Another way to look at it is that short haul Green Bay to Chicago would be a long haul in many countries including Britain which was EWS or Wisconsin Central territory.

[jsanchez]

Another way to look at it is that short haul Green Bay to Chicago would be a long haul in many countries including Britain which was EWS or Wisconsin Central territory.

[Anonymous]

Class I railroading sucks from a railfan perspective bring back the regionals and shortlines!!

[Anonymous]

Class I railroading sucks from a railfan perspective bring back the regionals and shortlines!!

[Anonymous]

Here's the part that ticks me off. Its about 193 miles from Green Bay to the central Chicagoland Ramps (ie. BNSF Willow Springs.) If that train ran with 50 units per day ( I think that's a conservative average) that means that there are now 19,300 more highway miles that are needlessly being run in my state each day. That was a 6 day a week train X 52 weeks = 6 MILLION extra highway miles annually. Gotta love that CN!!! [}:)]

[Anonymous]

Here's the part that ticks me off. Its about 193 miles from Green Bay to the central Chicagoland Ramps (ie. BNSF Willow Springs.) If that train ran with 50 units per day ( I think that's a conservative average) that means that there are now 19,300 more highway miles that are needlessly being run in my state each day. That was a 6 day a week train X 52 weeks = 6 MILLION extra highway miles annually. Gotta love that CN!!! [}:)]

[Anonymous]

If That train ran with 50 units per day it would not be shut down. Even if it were to have that number, the overhead cost's to move those trailers such a short distance would take away any profit. Railroads get paid by the mile, they recieve break even pay (if that) to load and unload those trailers. Factor in liability expences, you are talking about a money losing operation. I believe it was a smart move made by C.N. Lets not forget, railroads are not in business to please the taxpayer's or railfans. They are in business to please there stockholders and customers.(In that order.)
TIM A

[Anonymous]

If That train ran with 50 units per day it would not be shut down. Even if it were to have that number, the overhead cost's to move those trailers such a short distance would take away any profit. Railroads get paid by the mile, they recieve break even pay (if that) to load and unload those trailers. Factor in liability expences, you are talking about a money losing operation. I believe it was a smart move made by C.N. Lets not forget, railroads are not in business to please the taxpayer's or railfans. They are in business to please there stockholders and customers.(In that order.)
TIM A

[eolafan]

Tim A is exactly on point with his comments. We must never forget that the railroads are a "for profit" enterprise and do nothing much for the enjoyment of us foamers, so let's thank them properly for what enjoyment they do give us, and let's hope they continue to make enough money so as to keep on humming along for our continued enjoyment. Jim S.

[eolafan]

Tim A is exactly on point with his comments. We must never forget that the railroads are a "for profit" enterprise and do nothing much for the enjoyment of us foamers, so let's thank them properly for what enjoyment they do give us, and let's hope they continue to make enough money so as to keep on humming along for our continued enjoyment. Jim S.

[Saxman]

I too guestion CN's view of intermodal. The U.S. service from Canada to Chicago is an embarassment when compared to BNSF, UP, CSX and NS. Just as the Roadrailer business to Chicago was picking up, CN dropped it and gave a lame excuse that the trailers were needed for the service between Toronto and Montreal and with the softening economy didin't have the resources to invest in more trailers. I knew from the start that CN did not have the stomach to build the business as NS did. CN's Moyers Intermodal Terminal is a poor design with its short tracks and curves when compared to BNSF's Willow Springs with its long straight tracks. In fact , the whole Markham Yard, Moyers Intermodal Terminal and Gateway set-up is outdated by today's standards. E. Hunter should be taking a cue from BNSF's Arsenal and UP's Rochelle and purchase land around Kankakee and build a modren intermodal and freight yard and go after the business!

[Saxman]

I too guestion CN's view of intermodal. The U.S. service from Canada to Chicago is an embarassment when compared to BNSF, UP, CSX and NS. Just as the Roadrailer business to Chicago was picking up, CN dropped it and gave a lame excuse that the trailers were needed for the service between Toronto and Montreal and with the softening economy didin't have the resources to invest in more trailers. I knew from the start that CN did not have the stomach to build the business as NS did. CN's Moyers Intermodal Terminal is a poor design with its short tracks and curves when compared to BNSF's Willow Springs with its long straight tracks. In fact , the whole Markham Yard, Moyers Intermodal Terminal and Gateway set-up is outdated by today's standards. E. Hunter should be taking a cue from BNSF's Arsenal and UP's Rochelle and purchase land around Kankakee and build a modren intermodal and freight yard and go after the business!

[Anonymous]

I was a customer that used that train a great deal and so site my concerns much more from a business perspective than that of a "foamer." In talking to the CN about this train, they cited the problems in getting through the quagmire of junctions in Chicago a being a far greater driver of cost and poor service than the actual length of haul. They could get from Green Bay to Schiller Park w/ 2 crews and then could burn up to 3 more crews just getting to Harvey. That drove down crew utilization, power utilization, & flat car utilization. They could have run 100 units a day if they could have provided faster service.

[Anonymous]

I was a customer that used that train a great deal and so site my concerns much more from a business perspective than that of a "foamer." In talking to the CN about this train, they cited the problems in getting through the quagmire of junctions in Chicago a being a far greater driver of cost and poor service than the actual length of haul. They could get from Green Bay to Schiller Park w/ 2 crews and then could burn up to 3 more crews just getting to Harvey. That drove down crew utilization, power utilization, & flat car utilization. They could have run 100 units a day if they could have provided faster service.

[Anonymous]

Saxman, dblstack, You both make some good points. I am looking at things from the C.N. side. They see the huge overhead cost's associated with intermodel, they also see the bottlenecks in the large shipping centers. (Chicago is not the only bottleneck involving intermodel.) Right now is not the time to get into a toe to toe battle with trucking firms. (With the econemy right now, some of those trucking firms have kids sitting in those buckets for 3 bucks an hour.) Until intermodel shipping can become more fluid, I too would be very leary to make any big investments in it.
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Saxman, dblstack, You both make some good points. I am looking at things from the C.N. side. They see the huge overhead cost's associated with intermodel, they also see the bottlenecks in the large shipping centers. (Chicago is not the only bottleneck involving intermodel.) Right now is not the time to get into a toe to toe battle with trucking firms. (With the econemy right now, some of those trucking firms have kids sitting in those buckets for 3 bucks an hour.) Until intermodel shipping can become more fluid, I too would be very leary to make any big investments in it.
TIM A