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[quote]QUOTE: Originally posted by GP40-2 [quote]QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal [quote]QUOTE: Originally posted by klahm I don't see evidence that, in today's world, steam would necessarily be a superior technology. Yet it seems that some commenters impute that argument to Michael's posts. A theoretical potential for steam propulsion efficiency is advanced, with reference to the electric power generating industry, but no evidence of successful transfer to even a prototype railroad locomotive is cited. A comparison not raised is to marine propulsion. Steam was replaced by diesel in marine service, over a longer period of time. Marine service doesn't involve the complications of fuel and water replenishment inherent in railroad service, yet steam is not used as the motive power in modern ships. [/quote] Try to look at it this way: When we're talking about steam vs diesel today, we're really talking about coal vs oil. The price differential between coal and oil has only widened these last few years, while rail and marine propulsion applications are well grounded in diesel technology. If the price differential continues to widen, there certainly comes a point where even "classic" steam propulsion will be cheaper to operate than diesel electric. We may even be at that point now. The thing is, as that price differential widens (or at least stays wide), the prefered method of utilizing coal may be more cost effective via coal liquefication, which makes it compatible to the current compression ignition and tank storage/pipeline delivery infrastructure. On the other hand, synthetic coal processes that remove most of the moisture, ash, and metals from raw coal would make it ideal for classic steam technology, and there is no reason to believe a technically advanced steam propulsion system wouldn't be the most cost effective way of utilizing this synthetic coal as the prefered fuelstock. If it's the latter, it will more likely come in the maritime applications before it's adapted by railroads. [/quote] Many of the comments on this thread are based on the idea of current or future cheap coal, which is not true. The cost of coal is increasing, and if in fact, we switched from our current mix of oil based fuels to an all coal economy, you would see coal prices go through the roof. Coal is not a renewable resource, and when an area is mined out, that coal is gone forever. The last time I looked, the laws of supply and demand still apply, even to those who feel the need to rewrite history. Oh, by the way, please don't let economics stand in the way of this thread proceeding. For those of us who actually work in the industry, and know the true cost of such things, we find railfan's ideas on steam most amusing. Makes for good holiday entertainment... [/quote] Well, perhaps then you are also aware that the potential US supply of coal is (1) domestic, (2) well over 200 years worth even if demand goes through the roof, and (3) if you follow coal pricing vs oil/natural gas pricing you will see that even the most optimistic trend lines show coal prices increasing at a much lesser rate than that for oil and gas. Secondly, we're talking about the rail industry's demand for fuel, not national demand. If railroads were to switch to all coal fueling, you still wouldn't even see a blip on the national demand for coal. Thirdly, there are literally billions of tons of proven coal reserves that still haven't been developed, and it will take more coal price increases before these reserves can be brought on the market, which would subsequently cause national coal prices to level out. Lastly, petroleum isn't going to run out so much as it is going to be priced out due to it's need to be imported. We will never become a coal only economy, oil/gas (and nuclear) will always play a key role for years to come. What the rail industry needs to do is to think about developing their own coal based fuel supply, and let the rest of the country worry about it's own energy needs on it's own schedule.
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