Train overpasses

[gabe]

Has anyone ever seen the stretch of the South Shore that runs along I-90? The contour of the track on overpasses is the same as that of the highway. I would like to know the grade of assent for the track there.

Seeing the "orange worm" commuter trains go over the overpass does not seem that unusual. However, has anyone every seen a 100+ car freight train go over it? It doesn't seem like it would work. It seems like the South Shore's GP-38s couldn't handle such tonnage on such a sharp grade and the grade would be so sharp that it would brake the train or be hard on the knuckles.

Any thoughts?

Gabe

[Anonymous]

I know the grade starts a few feet east of Calumet Avenue and rises to the highway height at Columbia Avenue, 3 blocks east.
The 700s could handle it with ease with long trains, and the coal trains in the electric years would have an 800 on either end of the train. Old timers used to tell me that the power drawn by the big engines would make the catenary glow at night.
It's done today with a 3 or 4 geeps, but it's a trick as there's the 20mph curve at State Line, a little over a mile to the west.
The right of way along the Indiana Toll Road was purchased in the late 1920s when Insull first wanted an East Chicago bypass. It was to be built at ground level an the politics of East Chicago at the time, demanded a fortune to permit grade crossings with streets. When that was finally worked out the railroad didn't have the money to build the bypass. In the early '50s the Toll Road commission was looking for a right of way through the area and made a deal with the South Shore. They offered some cash and the complete construction of the bypass for the railroad for the right of way easement. The railroad agreed and when all was built including the highway half the passenger traffic disappeared.
If you look to your right while driving west on the toll road, just about where the railroad leaves the side of the road, you'll notice, down in the swamp, the never used trestle abutments for the original re-alignment.

Mitch

[chad thomas]

Hi Gabe,
How's the new job going? I guess you got a handle on it now if you have time to stop by the forum.

I don't know the place you're talking about but up in Richmond there is an overpass that looks like it's right off of a badly built layout. Watching a train go over it is like a lesson in defying physics.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Mitch's history of the East Chicago bypass is on the mark. The bypass also tends to have a roller coaster profile. The grades aren't severe but I'm sure that they have an effect on train handling, especially unit coal trains.

South Shore's electrical system has since been beefed up, but when the unit trains first started running in the mid 1960's, they had to be run from Burnham to Bailly or Michigan City in two sections since the substations couldn't support the current draw from running the trains in one section.

[Anonymous]

It looks worse than it is. The only exception is the grade gowing over the "J." Pure interurban. When I was an engineer there, and after coming from The Milwaukee Road, I have to say that being an operating employee on The South Shore takes a great amount of skill and railroading. With numerous train orders, soon to be considerably reduced with CTC, passenger schedules, and employee-in-charge track warrants, it's taxing to say the least.

Mitch

[CShaveRR]

I'm not sure about the degree of "assent".

I think in the case of the coal trains it's more like "I think I can".

The passenger trains had no problem. That's why the orange cars wound up their days with those "The Little Train that Could" stickers on the front.

As for the ascent, I wish I had a profile. But aren't you glad those coal trains aren't running down the middle of East Chicago along Route 312?

[MP173]

East Chicago railroading is great. I go there twice a week for business and the variety of trains and operations is refreshing.

Lets see...
1. South Shore passenger trains
2. South Shore freights with GP38's and caboose
3.. IHB roundhouse (ok a little south of the city limits)
4. Gibson Yard (ditto)
5. IHB and EJE branch lines snaking thru industrial areas.
6. Steel mill backdrops
7. Michigan Avenue yard.
8. Calumet Tower
9. Grassilli Tower
10. Union Tank Car manufacturing plant
11. Omni Scrap metal.
12. CSX mainline
13. IHB north south line with bottle trains
14. No doubt more than what I have listed


All of this is within a 2 or 3 mile area. Tell me where else one can find this kind of diversity of operations in 2005.

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

I'm not sure about the degree of "assent".

I think in the case of the coal trains it's more like "I think I can".

The passenger trains had no problem. That's why the orange cars wound up their days with those "The Little Train that Could" stickers on the front.

As for the ascent, I wish I had a profile. But aren't you glad those coal trains aren't running down the middle of East Chicago along Route 312?

"The Little Train That Could" slogan and cartoon came from a 1972 effort to rehab some of the cars and seek funding. One day the late Jim Flemming, a commercial artist and publisher in Michigan City approached another artist, Dale Flemming to come up with an image. Dale had no idea that the image would end up on the side of the equipment. He found out one day when his train rolled in to Miller for him to ride downtown. Stuck on the side of the coach was his cartoon.

Mitch

[MP173]

Mitch:

You doing any VU banners or anything for them? I see they have quite a bit of new artwork in the old gym.

We need to get together sometime you are coming over here.

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Mitch:

You doing any VU banners or anything for them? I see they have quite a bit of new artwork in the old gym.

We need to get together sometime you are coming over here.

ed

Ed,
Funny you should mention that. I'm presently working on a series of portraits of past deans for the VU School of Law. Then...I opened my big mouth and got myself a great VU assignment. The VU Community Concert Band is having a Sousa concert in February. Keith Brion, a world leading authority on Sousa, his works, and preformances is coming in to conduct the band. I was thrilled to learn this. I was told of the band's need to raise funds and was shown an old photo of Sousa standing in front of the Pennsy depot in Valpo taken in 1914 when he conducted the band at the Opera House. So I said, "Why don't I do a poster of this and donate the whole business to the band?" So I am, and the posters will be available late January. They went on to explain they were short a precussionist so I volunteered for that as well as I always wanted to preform in a sousa concert. So I'm at VU every Tuesday night at Brauer Hall for rehearsal. I have to be carefull not to hurt my right hand ( the drawing hand) when running the cymbals.

Mitch

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

I'm not sure about the degree of "assent".

I think in the case of the coal trains it's more like "I think I can".

The passenger trains had no problem. That's why the orange cars wound up their days with those "The Little Train that Could" stickers on the front.

As for the ascent, I wish I had a profile. But aren't you glad those coal trains aren't running down the middle of East Chicago along Route 312?

Thanks for pointing out my gramatical error. I will not post in the future unless I have time to edit properly my work.

Gabe

[tree68]

Gabe - Don't sweat the small stuff. Besides, made for a nice segue for Carl....

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Mitch;
I may be mistaken but did you do a drum solo in the Civic Opera House in Chicago about 1964 or so as part of a drum & bugle corps standstill exhibition sponsored by "Drum Corps World" magazine? Sig Sakowicz was the M.C.

[CShaveRR]

Gabe, I have nothing but respect for the content of all of your posts. But an opening for a little word play is hard to pass up!

Sorry if I offended you.

Carl

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Mitch;
I may be mistaken but did you do a drum solo in the Civic Opera House in Chicago about 1964 or so as part of a drum & bugle corps standstill exhibition sponsored by "Drum Corps World" magazine? Sig Sakowicz was the M.C.

Now there's a topic that was brought up at rehearsal just last week and I hadn't given it much though for 35 years.

No, It wasn't me, but it was a guy with the exact same name. I never heard of the fellow until, when I was at the American Academy of Art, we formed a small garage rock band.
I didn't have a drum kit at the time so I had to rent one. Just south of Adams Street on Wabash, was a small music store on the fifth floor of a narrow old building. After class we walked over to the store to rent the drums. The proprieter asked my name and I told him, "Mitch Markovitz." He yelled back, "No it's not!" We looked at each other wondering why this guy had a problem with my name. I took out my driver's license and showed him. The proprieter hit himself with the palm of his hand, on his forehead. He then picked up the latest issue of some drum magazine, turned a few pages and there he was,"World famous drummer, Mitch Markovitz," in a great marching pose with his field drum. We look nothing like each other.

Mitch

[MP173]

I have always known that railfans have an ability for detail...but Hegewisch, I think you are taking it a bit to the extreme to know about a drum solo performed over 40 years ago!

That is serious recall.

Mitch, I just finished running and my route takes my by the music hall, actually thru the entire university, including the Law School. I live just west of the hospital so the campus makes a great place to run.

Let me know if you want to drop in some evening.

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

I have always known that railfans have an ability for detail...but Hegewisch, I think you are taking it a bit to the extreme to know about a drum solo performed over 40 years ago!

That is serious recall.

Mitch, I just finished running and my route takes my by the music hall, actually thru the entire university, including the Law School. I live just west of the hospital so the campus makes a great place to run.

Let me know if you want to drop in some evening.

ed

Ed,
Details you say, I can remember stuff that happened when I was 3. That would be in 1953. I can clearly remember my first trip on the South Shore Line in April of 1954. We sat in the third car, a non-rebuild. I remember going down the street in East Chicago.
Let's try and develop a program to meet next Tuesday before rehearsal.
Mitch

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I remember the "Little Train that Could" decals quite well. All of the passenger cars plus the 800's had them. I don't think that any of the 700's or the diesels (600's and 1500's) had them.

Growing up about 150 yards from where South Shore crossed over the CWI and NKP leaves me with lots of childhood memories of the South Shore, including steeple cabs on work trains, the Fast Emergency Package Service cars on the 10:00 AM departure from Randolph Street (about 10:30 in Hegewisch) and waiting at 115th Street for the 3:21 train to take me home after high school let out for the day.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

I remember the "Little Train that Could" decals quite well. All of the passenger cars plus the 800's had them. I don't think that any of the 700's or the diesels (600's and 1500's) had them.

Growing up about 150 yards from where South Shore crossed over the CWI and NKP leaves me with lots of childhood memories of the South Shore, including steeple cabs on work trains, the Fast Emergency Package Service cars on the 10:00 AM departure from Randolph Street (about 10:30 in Hegewisch) and waiting at 115th Street for the 3:21 train to take me home after high school let out for the day.

Paul,
I know just where you were. Do you remember the platform on the bridge for the "Ford City" stop?

In the mid-sixties, when I was in Boy Scouts, our troop would hike, in March, from 113th and Torrance to 159th Street and have a lunch at Green Lake Forrest Preserve.

Mitch

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I do indeed remember the Ford City stop because of the occasional train that would stop there. That stop and a lot of other flagstops seem to have been discontinued about 1963 for lack of use and proximity to other stations.

One operation that I've never quite been able to understand was why South Shore maintained an interchange yard near Hegewisch between 135th and 133rd Streets when Burnham yard was so close. The interchange seems to have been taken up when the first auto-rack loading ramps for the Ford plant were built, also about 1963. Two or three spur tracks remained until the 1980's, connected only to South Shore and rarely used.

131st and Torrence to Green Lake, that's a long hike!!