If all of us across the country were to stand our ground and strike.... We would get everything we wanted. I don't understand why anyone would want to lie down and accept this garbage contract when we're actually able to strike. If we all hold it down we win.
We just need to do it all at once. Congress will have to fold. The senate will have to fold. They don't hold the cards.
Our union president is a coward who doesn't deserve to speak for us. He made that clear when he decided to agree to this current contract.
The choice is really up to us. No one else. Put on your big boy pants and do what you already know is the right thing to do.
We need to show them just how much power we really have. It's time they gave us the financial respect we deserve.
I have deleted a couple other posts on this topic this morning because they were copied-and-pasted from news articles or other sources without attribution. (How can I tell? The journalism-speak of the sentences and the text formatting in different fonts.)
Copying and pasting material from outside sources without attribution is a violation of copyright laws. Don't endanger this Forum. Copy and paste only the most relevant portion of the article, then provide a link for those who want to read more.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Railway Hammer If all of us across the country were to stand our ground and strike.... We would get everything we wanted. I don't understand why anyone would want to lie down and accept this garbage contract when we're actually able to strike. If we all hold it down we win. We just need to do it all at once. Congress will have to fold. The senate will have to fold. They don't hold the cards. Our union president is a coward who doesn't deserve to speak for us. He made that clear when he decided to agree to this current contract. The choice is really up to us. No one else. Put on your big boy pants and do what you already know is the right thing to do. We need to show them just how much power we really have. It's time they gave us the financial respect we deserve.
There's no way we, or any union in any industry, will ever get everything it wants. Even those that can't have a contract forced on them. I know there are a lot of railroaders out there who may think that.
From the postings on various social media outlets, it appears that the tentative agreement will be rejected. I'm not sure. I would not be surprised to have it pass, even if by a slim margin, and then have everybody say they don't know anyone who voted for it. Not because no one voted for it, but because no one will want to admit voting for it. Frank Wilner in Railway Age has already written an article that says "union bosses" might secretly pass the TA if the membership reject it. That's BS to undermine faith in the union process. There's enough of that now from members who are always complaining about their union, many of whom never bother to attend a meeting when they are able to. Any group is only as good as those who actively participate in it.
It's also obvious that there are people looking for a reason to vote no, a reason to complain about it. I've heard a few say the PEB recommendations were better than the TA. I don't know how that could be. The TA is the PEB recommendations with a few items that the PEB said should be negotiated locally. Items the carriers weren't going to budge on, but than did, even if sparingly. The TA, has did the PEB, does "kick down the road" many items that the carriers want. Barring agreement on those items, then they go to binding arbitraition, which usually means the carriers get want they want.
No one knows exactly what the TA is. There are a few items that have been agreed to in general terms, but the specifics are being worked on. One item, that was not in the PEB is "assigned, voluntary rest days for road service, pool and extra board, employees." The details on how to write the agreement are being worked on.
This moron* is leaning towards voting for it. I don't like that some of the items are to be negotiated later. Most of those items will lead to more people being cut. I just don't believe we could get that much more out of the carriers.
Jeff *One of my coworkers, a friend and person running for the vacant vice president position in my BLET division posted on social media that anyone who voted for this was a moron.
Wilner works for an industry rag and is trying to stir the pot like he always does.
I know the TA is still being kicked around, but as it stands from what was posted - I can't vote for it unless the final version is vastly different.
It does nothing to address quality of life issues. The three "medical care visit days" are an outright insult. And I don't like all the language promoting self-sustaining pools. I don't know how other RRs work, but our boards are guaranteed - the pools are not. I see the guaranteed lists and more regular jobs being taken away and being tossed to pools.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
The only quality of life is the voluntary rest days. To be determined on how those are implemented.
Our engineer road pools don't have any guarantee. All other trainmen/switchmen boards and pools and engineer extra boards, yard, and local jobs have some kind of guarantee. (That's why I like the idea of voluntary rest days. When everything is "normal" I usually have 30 +/- hours off between runs. Sometimes I have less than 24 and get or get close to receiving the Federal rest requirement. I also have periods of 40 to 50 hours off. I compare my earnings to extra board guarantee. As long as I'm at least at extra board guarantee, I'm happy.)
Those up to three days off, three times a year (with proper documentation) that only can be used for appointments on Tues, Weds, and Thurs isn't much. At least any hospitalization any time can have that time off expunged from the attendence policy. Why the carriers just couldn't accept proper documentation for any medical appointment any day that would expunge that time is beyond me. My doctor isn't available on Thursdays.
We have been working to get a voluntary "smart rest" agreement. It would allow a person on the 5th consecutive start to book 22 1/2 hours rest that would provide the 24 hour break in continuity to reset the HOS requirement for 48/72 hours off after working 6/7 consecutive days. We sent a 3 page document, the railroad responded with a 7 page document that included self-supporting pools, changes in how pools and extra boards are regulated and the electronic automatic bidding system of assignments. Things that the carriers want and aren't included in the PEB or TA except to be negotiated locally and then binding arbitration.
If we go to self supporting pools, there had better be in writing what is pool and extra board work. (It can differ between locations, even on the same railroad.) Right now as a pool engineer I can, and usually do, reject requests to fill yard engine vacancies when the extra board is exhausted.
All those things they want is to reduce headcount.
Jeff
zugmann Wilner works for an industry rag and is trying to stir the pot like he always does. I know the TA is still being kicked around, but as it stands from what was posted - I can't vote for it unless the final version is vastly different. It does nothing to address quality of life issues. The three "medical care visit days" are an outright insult. And I don't like all the language promoting self-sustaining pools. I don't know how other RRs work, but our boards are guaranteed - the pools are not. I see the guaranteed lists and more regular jobs being taken away and being tossed to pools.
Admittedly; I have no dog in this current 'srike' hunt... BUT I do tend to read and see a lot of what is 'reported' in available resources.
I think that Zugmann's point of addressing the issue of "...It does nothing to address quality of life issues... " [emphasis is mine] is spot on.
From te first, it nseemed to be the overarching issue and point of major contension; having been surfaced here inb the Thread referencing the BNSF and its issues mentioned by the posted video of the employees' wives. Money,and pay seemed to come in as a distant secondary issue(?) It was the 'quality of life' that seemed to be the major issue.
For thefirst time, in my memory, the issue was not centered around 'pay', iitseemed amazing for rail unions to not be pushing foprmost for 'more pay' and 'other considerations' as their first gambit.
OTHER issues seemed to be also mentioned, but not nearly, as vociferously, as that of the 'quality of life'. So the Unions and the railrpoad managements will have a lot to speak to each other on; my own feelings are that the political class has jumped on this potential 'strike' as an issue where they can make 'political hay' during the Mid-term Elections Period (?)
My own gut feeling isthat the management side is holding out their really huge issue: Oe Man Crews.... That one wil be The Battle. Give 'em a few wins; some work rules changes, some Q.o.L. rules, and then when the new contract is settled. Hit them with one operator, and their 14K ft train; with computer operatons, and one set of eyes on board(?) Just my prediction....
jeffhergertIf we go to self supporting pools, there had better be in writing what is pool and extra board work. (It can differ between locations, even on the same railroad.) Right now as a pool engineer I can, and usually do, reject requests to fill yard engine vacancies when the extra board is exhausted.
You know the pool will be forceed to cover all once the extra boards are cut to the bone.
Carriers have yet to negotiate a contract that they don't violate the provisions of intentionally and repeatedly.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Euclid Railway Hammer If all of us across the country were to stand our ground and strike.... We would get everything we wanted. I don't understand why anyone would want to lie down and accept this garbage contract when we're actually able to strike. If we all hold it down we win. We just need to do it all at once. Congress will have to fold. The senate will have to fold. They don't hold the cards. Our union president is a coward who doesn't deserve to speak for us. He made that clear when he decided to agree to this current contract. The choice is really up to us. No one else. Put on your big boy pants and do what you already know is the right thing to do. We need to show them just how much power we really have. It's time they gave us the financial respect we deserve. I agree with your point that Labor is in an unusually favorable position in this dispute if they refuse to go to work. But what would that amount to? You say everyone should stand their ground and strike. In my opinion, the Biden Admiration can’t stand a strike before the Midterms. So they will end a strike the instant it begins, and Congress will order everyone to return to work. If they can do that, how do you get everything you want by striking if a strike will not be allowed?
I agree with your point that Labor is in an unusually favorable position in this dispute if they refuse to go to work. But what would that amount to? You say everyone should stand their ground and strike. In my opinion, the Biden Admiration can’t stand a strike before the Midterms. So they will end a strike the instant it begins, and Congress will order everyone to return to work. If they can do that, how do you get everything you want by striking if a strike will not be allowed?
Lots of conjecture and inflammatory talk. QoL doesn't matter much once positions are lost permanently to automation. The public today and thus Congress won't put up with a shutdown of more than a few days duration.
charlie hebdoQoL doesn't matter much once positions are lost permanently to automation.
All the more reason to go after it now, and not "next time".
charlie hebdoThe public today and thus Congress won't put up with a shutdown of more than a few days duration.
True. Public didn't even begin to comprehend what a RR shutdown would do. And the newsmedia was more concerned with a handful of Amtrak trains being cancelled (when not talking endlessly about the English monarchy for some reason).
zugmannTrue. Public didn't even begin to comprehend what a RR shutdown would do. And the newsmedia was more concerned with a handful of Amtrak trains being cancelled (when not talking endlessly about the English monarchy for some reason).
The news media are obsessed with other things than trains at the moment. Aside from Amtrak and commuter trains it would surprise me if they know freight railroading even exists.
"I didn't know there WERE freight trains anymore!"
Flintlock76"I didn't know there WERE freight trains anymore!"
Alas, that is all too true...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Trust me they would remember in a hurry when they when the stores run out of about everything as the OTR industry will not be able to carry the load. Why there is no way we have that capacity to carry even one lane between Chicago and one other major one city that the class ones haul.
Shadow the Cats ownerTrust me they would remember in a hurry when they when the stores run out of about everything as the OTR industry will not be able to carry the load.
Unfortunately far too many people out there think food comes from the supermarket, fuels come from the gas station, and electricity comes from the hole in the wall with no idea of the backstory concerning all of the above.
Flintlock76The news media are obsessed with other things than trains at the moment. Aside from Amtrak and commuter trains it would surprise me if they know freight railroading even exists. "I didn't know there WERE freight trains anymore!"
I just can't hold my tongue on this:
As naive as people treat the media about knowing about railroading (or any other specialized topic), people that say stuff like this are just as naive about the media.
NittanyLionAs naive as people treat the media about knowing about railroading (or any other specialized topic), people that say stuff like this are just as naive about the media.
Well I don't know, but I found list of "The Top 100 Transportation Journalists" and the only name I recognized who's done railroads was Bernie Wagenblast. Honestly I didn't go through the whole list but spot-checking some of the names I didn't find any railroad specialists. They seemed to be primarily concerned with automotive issues. But here's the list anyway for those who'd care to go through it.
https://prowly.com/profiles/journalist-lists/top-100-transportation-logistics-journalists-in-the-us
No-one from "Trains," which makes me wonder why.
Makes me miss Don Phillips.
Flintlock76 NittanyLion As naive as people treat the media about knowing about railroading (or any other specialized topic), people that say stuff like this are just as naive about the media. Well I don't know, but I found list of "The Top 100 Transportation Journalists" and the only name I recognized who's done railroads was Bernie Wagenblast. Honestly I didn't go through the whole list but spot-checking some of the names I didn't find any railroad specialists. They seemed to be primarily concerned with automotive issues. But here's the list anyway for those who'd care to go through it. https://prowly.com/profiles/journalist-lists/top-100-transportation-logistics-journalists-in-the-us...
NittanyLion As naive as people treat the media about knowing about railroading (or any other specialized topic), people that say stuff like this are just as naive about the media.
https://prowly.com/profiles/journalist-lists/top-100-transportation-logistics-journalists-in-the-us...
With two names repeated - the list should be numbered to 98, which leads me to question the whole exercise.
Having no way of knowing first hand, but could management's reluctance on the QOL issues be in any way based upon concerns that any concessions they might make could potentally be weaponized against them?
For example some have mentioned jobs having a guaranteed "minimum" compensation.
If the employees were given 10 personal days unpaid leave per year, to be used however the employees may choose...is there the potential that an employee with a guaranteed minimum might use that provision to convert their unpaid time off to "paid" time off as a function of the guarantee?
Flintlock76 NittanyLion As naive as people treat the media about knowing about railroading (or any other specialized topic), people that say stuff like this are just as naive about the media. Well I don't know, but I found list of "The Top 100 Transportation Journalists" and the only name I recognized who's done railroads was Bernie Wagenblast. Honestly I didn't go through the whole list but spot-checking some of the names I didn't find any railroad specialists. They seemed to be primarily concerned with automotive issues. But here's the list anyway for those who'd care to go through it. https://prowly.com/profiles/journalist-lists/top-100-transportation-logistics-journalists-in-the-us No-one from "Trains," which makes me wonder why. Makes me miss Don Phillips.
Public and the media are ill-informed about rails. Perhaps it shows rail employees should demand better PR from their unions rather than cursing the night, so to speak.
Convicted One Having no way of knowing first hand, but could management's reluctance on the QOL issues be in any way based upon concerns that any concessions they might make could potentally be weaponized against them? For example some have mentioned jobs having a guaranteed "minimum" compensation. If the employees were given 10 personal days unpaid leave per year, to be used however the employees may choose...is there the potential that an employee with a guaranteed minimum might use that provision to convert their unpaid time off to "paid" time off as a function of the guarantee?
We already have 11 paid personal leave days. (They are given to road service, pool and extra board, instead of extra pay on holidays. There are 11 recognized holidays, hence 11 paid leave days.) The PEB and TA add another. One doesn't get all 11 at once, but are added in increments depending on length of service. The additional one I assume would go to all immediately.
We also can convert some vacation weeks to single days, to be used before the week is scheduled. (Doesn't help those with a vacation early in the year, usually newer people.)
The railroads were quick to note the above on the run up to the PEB. What they didn't say is that all that "available" compensated time can only be used when approved by the railroads. If manpower is short, as it usually is, they deny the use of those days.
The Tentative Agreement has voluntary, assigned days off for road service (pool and extra board) people. The implementation of which is still be hashed. That is a quality of life issue. Once down in black and white it will be up to the individual as to whether that's good enough for this round.
I'm inclined to think it is, but I do want to see details. I don't have a guarantee, but I would guess that for those that do there would be an offset for the days off. Some might not like that. (About 20 years ago, we a pilot program on our extra boards for assigned restdays that didn't have an offset. At large and/or busy terminals, we still made over guarantee. The smaller/less busy terminals didn't and the railroad started paying out too much guarantee. The railroad ended the program because of that.)
jeffhergertWe already have 11 paid personal leave days. (They are given to road service, pool and extra board, instead of extra pay on holidays. There are 11 recognized holidays, hence 11 paid leave days.) The PEB and TA add another. One doesn't get all 11 at once, but are added in increments depending on length of service. The additional one I assume would go to all immediately. We also can convert some vacation weeks to single days, to be used before the week is scheduled. (Doesn't help those with a vacation early in the year, usually newer people.) The railroads were quick to note the above on the run up to the PEB. What they didn't say is that all that "available" compensated time can only be used when approved by the railroads. If manpower is short, as it usually is, they deny the use of those days. The Tentative Agreement has voluntary, assigned days off for road service (pool and extra board) people. The implementation of which is still be hashed. That is a quality of life issue. Once down in black and white it will be up to the individual as to whether that's good enough for this round. I'm inclined to think it is, but I do want to see details. I don't have a guarantee, but I would guess that for those that do there would be an offset for the days off. Some might not like that. (About 20 years ago, we a pilot program on our extra boards for assigned restdays that didn't have an offset. At large and/or busy terminals, we still made over guarantee. The smaller/less busy terminals didn't and the railroad started paying out too much guarantee. The railroad ended the program because of that.) Jeff
Sincerely, thanks for the thoughtful and detailed reply.
The Devil is always in the details. I am not aware how many of the details are still unresolved, and how critical those details are to QoL issues.
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