Anyone know why the older style end cab swithers had horns that went BLAT, rather than the nicer sounding horns of reoad engines?
I'm guessing the horns were cheaper?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
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Many early diesels had the 'blat' horns when built, as did the GG1 electrics. They were 'standard' enough that Bukka White started introducing their sound on saxophone (or comparable instrument) as 'the sound of streamliners'. EMD catalogued a special smaller horn to save even more money on switchers...
Airchime as I recall wasn't a 'thing' until 1950, and while Westinghouse offered 2- and 3-chime horns before that, it was a rare thing to put chime horns on. Something that was claimed was that the chimes would distinguish an approaching train from car or truck horns.
There is no particular reason why a yard engine needs a chime horn, so it's not surprising that most of them were built with only one 'bell'. Much early road power was built with two horms, one facing forward and one facing back to call in flagmen and the like; there were two separate 'pulls' in the cab for the different horns, and in the days road-switchers had a 'preferred' operating direction (the Jersey Central RSDs being an example) the two horns might be pitched differently.
There was actually one switcher in the south Memphis area that retained its 'honker' into the late 2010s -- surprising how nostalgic that sound has come to be!
OvermodThere was actually one switcher in the south Memphis area that retained its 'honker' into the late 2010s -- surprising how nostalgic that sound has come to be!
We had a switcher for the shortline in town that had a honker. But it was pretty beat and replaced by a multi-chime (sorry, I'm not a horn aficianado). I did hear (heh) some of those one-notes may not be entirely FRA legal with the sound output or some sort.
Our SW1 has a "honker." I think many ALCO RS's (1, 2, 3) were also built with them - and with two whistle cords, depending on which way you were going.
I recall hearling such a horn on a PC F unit in the middle 1970's.
One common model was the Leslie Typhon. http://atsf.railfan.net/airhorns/a200.html
One problem with the "honkers" in the modern day is that motorists are used to the three and five chime horns in use today. We almost hit a fellow who complained "I thought you were supposed to be blowing your horn." The engineer was very definitely blowing the old "blatter," but the motorist's ears weren't tuned to it, if you will.
There used to be an excellent web site with numerous sound samples, but I believe the owner of the site passed away and the site may well be gone as well.
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For much of my childhood, 'visible' railroading was the tractor engine sound and "HAAAAMP!" sound of Erie and then Erie-Lackawanna RS2s and 3s. You could hear the evocative chime of NYC engines on the West Shore late at night, but by the time I could get over there on the bike to railfan, the road power was the likes of U25Bs. I never heard the NYC Baldwins and other commuter power there.
At least one crew in Wilkes-Barre/Kingston took advantage of the 'two-note' feature of the opposite-facing horns -- I don't know which railroad. They would blow first the higher, then the lower note for each 'dot or dash' of the crossing signal, giving a very distinctive minor-key sort of hee-haw that is only accidentally approximated by defective chime horns today...
OvermodThey would blow first the higher, then the lower note...
Sounds like the "Barker bark," a hallmark of the laker James R. Barker. I don't know if they do it on purpose, or if the higher note just sounds that much sooner than the lower note when air/steam is applied. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmdh_8ESAHc
The horn on the lift bridge is two five chime air horns that sound like they could use a good tuning...
Probably sounds similar to an NKP GP9.
I would say the answer is a) end-cab switchers were often a railroad's first diesels, in some cases going back to the mid-1930's, and b)when airhorns were developed, they were all just a single horn. The idea of creating a multi-horn chime to try to replicate the sound of a multi-chime steam whistle didn't come along until the 1950s.
I recall that the DM&IR hated the BLAT horns that GM applied to their SD-9s in the mid-fifties. They tried Hancock air whistles and loved the sound, but they weren't loud enough. Eventually they found a five-chime airhorn that was loud but still had a sweet sound.
Soo Line had many 1st generation diesels with single chime horns that were never changed to another type. When they took over the line I grew up by in 1982, the Minneapolis Northfield and Southern, it was quite a difference as the MNS used Hancock air whistles. The Soo's hi-hood GP-9s with their BLAT horns were many times louder.
tree68There used to be an excellent web site with numerous sound samples, but I believe the owner of the site passed away and the site may well be gone as well.
Maybe this will help a bit. It's ERR by 3d Rail's page. Click on "Shop Now Review Sounds" and scroll down for diesel horn and other sounds. Not complete by any means but it's something.
http://www.3rdrail.com/err-3rdrail/index.html
If you haven't heard this video before, it's an entertaining 1975 half hour speech by Bob Swanson, credited as the inventor of the 5 chime air horn for locomotives and also known for his Canadian whistle farm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6_8KqYjPF0
In 1976, he came to EMD and gave this same presentation to our Engineering department when I was the noise engineer.
Keep in mind that there were multichime air horns long before Swanson, on the Lackawanna. Some were even installed in yards for the 'usual purposes' horns or sirens were furnished (at least there are pictures of them at Hoboken).
As I recall, these were made by a local organ company, and presumably were tuned to some kind of pleasing chord, but harmony and deep tone don't appear to have been the priority. I never thought I'd hear what they sounded like, but there is 1929 newsreel footage of the then-new Poconos in which you can hear plenty.
Perhaps amusingly, the high-speed Lackawanna Hudsons had only a perky-sized single honger perched above the boiler. Perhaps this was intended to ape the 'blat' of contemporary fast motor trains...
bogie_engineerCanadian whistle
Seems like I once read that the notes of the Canadian horns were set by law.
These days, you can often tell which railroad's engine is leading by listening.
bogie_engineer If you haven't heard this video before, it's an entertaining 1975 half hour speech by Bob Swanson, credited as the inventor of the 5 chime air horn for locomotives and also known for his Canadian whistle farm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6_8KqYjPF0 In 1976, he came to EMD and gave this same presentation to our Engineering department when I was the noise engineer.
Thanks for sharing .
Thank You.
What is going on? No one has mentioned the BLAT horns of SP GS locos. It was amusing when 4449 would blow the steam whistle on one crossing and the BLAT every once in a while. Often when leaving a station with a lot of fans the BLAT would startle everyone..
Question - because I don't know?
How much air pressure is required to operate the horns?
How much steam pressure is required to operate the whistle?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDHow much air pressure is required to operate the horns?
Unless it's otherwise regulated, Diesel locomotive horns probably run on main reservoir air, which is around 140 PSI.
I'd have to guess that steam whistles ran on boiler pressure.
There are sites that discuss the physics involved.
There is a lower limit to the pressure that runs a typical air horn, which contains an internal diaphragm that has to vibrate to make the sound directed by the exhaust air passing through the bell. I don't remember how 'low you can go' but I suspect that the Amtrak and other locomotives with 'two-speed horns' accomplish the quieter blowing by reducing main reservoir pressure through some kind of valve and regulator. There may also be a regulator for engines built with 132dB or whatever horns that now have to be in compliance with the FRA horn rules.
I was taught that very little of what actually blew a steam chime whistle had to be steam. The jet from the outlet/orifice in each chamber of the whistle was said to entrain air, much as the nozzle jet in a locomotive front end entrains combustion gas, and the mixture was directed across the opening to the lip or labium (as in a 'flue' organ pipe) with Bernoulli's Principle producing a lower pressure to drive resonance at the chamber length. Etc. With air rather than condensable steam being most of the resonant 'air column' that produces the sound.
I have since repeatedly been advised that within a short time the air will have been displaced by steam. This is not merely a dueling-pedants discussion: it helps when considering if a whistle sounds the same when blown on air as it does on steam.
There is also the fun involved in why calliope pipes have their... certain... sound as compared to the louder organ-stop pipes. Compare to this what's happening when you get overtones blowing into a bottle...
Maybe someone here owns a switcher with a BLAT horn and was inspired to steal the 3-chime from the M&E locomotive to make it sound better...
tree68I'd have to guess that steam whistles ran on boiler pressure.
You can see the results, and some of the design changes, discussed in Nathan's entries for whistles and valves in editions of the Locomotive Cyclopedia between 1922 and 1952.
Another thing that began to be significant here was the physical force needed to operate the whistle valve. Relatively quickly these acquired similar 'pop' construction, where an 'accelerating' piston pulls the valve open against boiler pressure once the valve is cracked or ported open, and a spring arrangement counterbalances much of the pressure for ease in operation. I know of no use (other than my own proposals) of the Wagner throttle's fluidic-amplifying principle to implement 'quillable' valve control at very high boiler pressures. Nathan and others went the other way by providing 'air' actuation to the whistle via a simple valve -- it was like a horn in being 'on' or 'off' with only short instability in starting or stopping.
There was some consternation in putting a whistle on the 600psi Babcock & Wilcox boiler in the N&W TE-1. Apparently a 'standard' type of 300psi whistle was installed and unsurprisingly produced a ghastly screech of overtone, probably distressing similar in sound to a Class A whistle. I think Louis Newton discussed this in Rails Remembered 4 ('Tale of a Turbine') although I don't remember precisely what N&W did about it...
Someone who knows can find out how the high-pressure experimentals, for example on D&H, New York Central, and CP, handled the whistle issue.
Confirmed with our head mechanic today - main res pressure for air horns.
It's usually interesting to see at what point in building up main res pressure you can get a suitable reaction from the horn.
A number of years back, while living in the Eastern part of Memphis, Tn. on what, then, was still a regularly active line (orig. it was NC&StL , then L&N )
The anomaly was that the 'Daily Local' was crewed by former NC&StL employees-Senority issues, I'd guess(?). It ran out to the Area of Brownsville, Tn. 6 days a week. then) The line ran behind our neghbrhood; for quite a while they used some 'foreign' CN power. Somehow, for quite a while, they 'used' those 'foreign engines'... you could hear their 'melodic' horns for blocks .. so different, from the usual 'noisemakers' on the L&N's power [ BLATER"S, HONKERS, and HOOTERS(?)].. They,CN's horns] were a joy to wake up to in the early AM hours.. My personal, introduction to a 'difference' in the quality of some railroad air horns..
The best sound in the world was the sound of Hancock Air Whistles on MNCR's ex-NH FL9's and FL18's echoing across the Hudson Valley at dusk (1) Hancock 4700 - Bing video
BEAUSABREThe best sound in the world was the sound of Hancock Air Whistles on MNCR's ex-NH FL9's and FL18's echoing across the Hudson Valley at dusk
We used a Hancock for years at the "north end" (Lake Placid) when inside the villages of Lake Placid and Saranac Lake (tracks now history). One mother complained bitterly when we were forced to go back to a standard horn - a daily adventure of watching the train go by suddenly became a frightning experience.
BEAUSABRE The best sound in the world was the sound of Hancock Air Whistles on MNCR's ex-NH FL9's and FL18's echoing across the Hudson Valley at dusk (1) Hancock 4700 - Bing video
CSSHEGEWISCHEJ&E also had them on some of their centercabs. Pleasant sound but it didn't seem as loud as the more common air horns.
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