Is There A Way?

[greyhounds]

 

I hate this damn war in Europe.  But it’s happening.  There’s nothing I can do about it.  All I can do is sit back and read about the young men (and others) being killed. 

 

But..

 

Ukraine is a major source of food for other populations.  Ukrainian farmers are trying to harvest their fields and sell stored crops from last year.  Between battles on their fields and artillery destroying their homes and farm buildings, they’re trying to keep this whole food thing going.

 

Russia has the Black Sea ports blocked or captured.  Now what?

 

1)      Ukraine did move some grain out by rail through Rumanian ports.  They did it in 28 car trains!  Come On!  28 car grain trains?  Can’t a few brave souls go there and show them how to use distributed power?  (Please know that I was a marketing guy, and I am now 71 years old.  So, I’d kind of just be in the way.  I did serve in the US Army Transportation Corps way back when.)

 

2)      There’s a gauge break.  Ukraine uses the 5’ Russian gauge while western Europe uses the 4’ 8 ½” Standard Gauge.  It is possible to combine rail transport on two gauges.  Brazil does a fantastic job doing it operating their predominant meter gauge system in conjunction with a 5’ 3” broad gauge system.  Brazil even operates freight cars and locomotives of the different gauges in the same train.  It just takes a 3-rail track.  One rail is common for both gauges.  Another meter gauge rail handles that gauge.  A 3^rd outside rail handles that equipment.  It works!

 

3)      I’m told that it’s not possible to do the three-rail thing between Standard Gauge and Russian Gauge because there’s not enough space between the rails to allow it. But I’ve been told a whole lot of things that aren’t true.

 

Do any of you have a concept of how to lay an inner rail on the Ukrainian Railways that would allow their export of the needed grain through western European ports instead of blocked Black Sea ports?  

 

 

 

 

 

[Overmod]

I'm reasonably sure that exports of DP locomotives would be less of a tripwire than arms sales.  On the other hand, anything seen as interference prolonging the war... and getting around the effect of blockaded ports might qualify... might lead to 'special attention'.  That includes some fun potential hacks to the DP protocol that I'd rather not see used.

A Dynon-style bogie exchange might be made to work, but it might involve a LOT of bogies... and pose an interesting strike or sabotage target.

My understanding is that the issues with the three-rail provision involve the combination of tread conicity and flange root thickness on running gear, and the difficulty of positioning rail-holding devices between the rail bases.

You might get around the former with a profiled vertical flange bearing surface on the back sides of the 5' gauge wheels (perhaps all the wheels if a common wheel stock is desired).  The latter might be addressed with special tieplates and strategic field-notching of the rail base to use modified spikes (with two contact surfaces) in the gap.  You will need to change or profile or grind the 'common rail' roughly twice as often.  No self-guarding frogs, no high-speed switches or crossovers without what might be interesting swingnose frogs or interesting switch and crossover separation by gauge.  Be interesting to see it tried, but I don't expect it to be a priority in wartime.

[wjstix]

greyhounds

Ukraine did move some grain out by rail through Rumanian ports. They did it in 28 car trains! Come On! 28 car grain trains? Can’t a few brave souls go there and show them how to use distributed power?

Doesn't do any good to show them how to use distributed power if they don't have the technology in place to do it.

It's easy to forget that our mile-long freight trains are very unusual for the rest of the world. Smaller freight cars and shorter trains are the norm in most places. They may not even have m.u. capability, since they don't run long trains. I suspect rail lines in Europe generally have infrastructue set up for shorter trains, like shorter passing sidings etc.

No doubt some rail lines are unuseable due to their being damaged or being unpassable due to fighting. Some freight cars may be unobtainable because they're on lines that are now cut off.

Plus if you're in a war zone, I would think the longer the train is, the better a target it is.

[charlie hebdo]

Overmod

I'm reasonably sure that exports of DP locomotives would be less of a tripwire than arms sales.  On the other hand, anything seen as interference prolonging the war... and getting around the effect of blockaded ports might qualify... might lead to 'special attention'.  That includes some fun potential hacks to the DP protocol that I'd rather not see used.

A Dynon-style bogie exchange might be made to work, but it might involve a LOT of bogies... and pose an interesting strike or sabotage target.

My understanding is that the issues with the three-rail provision involve the combination of tread conicity and flange root thickness on running gear, and the difficulty of positioning rail-holding devices between the rail bases.

You might get around the former with a profiled vertical flange bearing surface on the back sides of the 5' gauge wheels (perhaps all the wheels if a common wheel stock is desired).  The latter might be addressed with special tieplates and strategic field-notching of the rail base to use modified spikes (with two contact surfaces) in the gap.  You will need to change or profile or grind the 'common rail' roughly twice as often.  No self-guarding frogs, no high-speed switches or crossovers without what might be interesting swingnose frogs or interesting switch and crossover separation by gauge.  Be interesting to see it tried, but I don't expect it to be a priority in wartime.

 

Details, Details!  Who needs them stinkin' facts?!!

[rrnut282]

A modified girder rail on one side?

[Overmod]

rrnut282

A modified girder rail on one side?

Interesting thought.  You could roll the two 'halves' with a solid or intermittent half web just under flange depth and another at the base, and use something like laser keyhole welding in CA to join the two halves, in shop or in the field, so Pandrol clips on wider plates could provide fixation.    You could reverse sticks of this over time to equalize wear on the two gauges.  Switches remain the chief pain.  You might have to have two physical sets of points, one for each gauge, and bring them together on the diverging line.  Gantlet track arrangements may be useful models here.

[jeffhergert]

No real details, but this came out yesterday.  Found it by accident on another site.

Germany's railway operator plans Ukraine "grain bridge" (msn.com)

Jeff

[Euclid]

I assume that if Ukraine wanted to interchage with a different gage, they would go ahead an make whatever conversion is necessary if they believed it would be cost effective.  

[Backshop]

Euclid

I assume that if Ukraine wanted to interchage with a different gage, they would go ahead an make whatever conversion is necessary if they believed it would be cost effective.  

 

It's kind of hard to do when your country is fighting for its very life against a much larger invader.  You also don't know if it's cost effective because it' not your primary mode of exporting your grain, ships are.

[Gramp]

Right after safe shipping of grain by water agreement was signed yesterday,  Russia fired cruise missiles into the port. 

[Euclid]

Backshop

 

 

Euclid

I assume that if Ukraine wanted to interchage with a different gage, they would go ahead an make whatever conversion is necessary if they believed it would be cost effective.  

 

 

 

 

It's kind of hard to do when your country is fighting for its very life against a much larger invader.  You also don't know if it's cost effective because it' not your primary mode of exporting your grain, ships are.

 

 

Well if the war is the problem, or if the problem is that they don't know the economics of shipping grain by rail, they won't need any suggestions on how to become interchangeable with other gages. 

[Backshop]

Euclid

 

 

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Euclid

I assume that if Ukraine wanted to interchage with a different gage, they would go ahead an make whatever conversion is necessary if they believed it would be cost effective.  

 

 

 

 

It's kind of hard to do when your country is fighting for its very life against a much larger invader.  You also don't know if it's cost effective because it' not your primary mode of exporting your grain, ships are.

 

 

 

 

 

Well if the war is the problem, or if the problem is that they don't know the economics of shipping grain by rail, they won't need any suggestions on how to become interchangeable with other gages. 

 

Yeah, war is the problem.  They normally ship grain by freighter.  European railroads don't have the infrastructure for unit trains like the US and Canada do.