How is PTC working out?
How is Trip Optimizer working out?
I have not seen where any carrier has progressed PTC past the production testing stage of the implementation. I could be wrong.
On CSX Trip Optimizer and its EMD equivalent were being pushed hard by the Supervision of the engineers on a fuel savings basis. Of course what I witnessed was in the days of 9000 foot maximum trains without DPU that was the standard until I retired. What the standards and operating philosophy are today, I have no idea.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I haven't used Trip Op in quite a while, on CN we are not allowed to let it run the train if we have throttle restrictions. CN has never used any of the other automated energy management systems so I can't comment on them.
Before that change it was still up to its same old tricks of throttling down as you were about to start up a hill, or doing other strange things that forced the engineer to take control. Or it wouldn't initialize in the first place.
The moving track profile screen with your train on it does help visualize where you are.
PTC is of course not used in Canada, but CN's policy is to leave it turned on if the unit has it. There have been a number of cases where it has triggered a penalty or emergency brake application for no apparent reason, causing delays and requiring you to call the Diesel Doc to troubleshoot it and eventually cut it out in many cases.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I like PTC, the operating screen gives you a "heads up" on what's coming up. It's currently an overlay on the existing signal system. It doesn't show signal aspects or indications, but you can infer what the signals are going to be if nothing changes as you approach them. While I do like it, it has some short comings and it does act up at times. I don't believe it's the panacea that some think it is.
For a train running on any signal more favorable than an approach/approach diverging, the track segment on the map (operation screen) is green. A track segment for an approach/diverging approach is yellow, as is temporary speed restrictions. (Permanent speed restrictions are not displayed on the map.) A track segment that is not authorized for your train's movement is red. Entrance segments; portions of yard or sidings that connect to the main track are gray and won't change color.
Track segments that are red and aren't authorized, such as at a MOW work zone or at a Stop signal will also be covered by a red hash box. MOW work zones are covered by a blue hash box and until authorized through, a red hash box. Track segments that are subject to Restricted speed, whether by signal indication or rule (yard limits, etc.) are covered by a yellow hash box. A hash box is a box with diagonal lines of the appropriate color.
The screen also has current location (including which main track in multiple main track locations), stopping distance, warning distance, distance to next target and what the target is (authority, speed restriction, etc). It also has current authorized speed for the train's location, which includes permanent and temporary speeds, and current train speed.
Here's a link to NS's guide to PTC. It's about the same as ours, except the energy management screens are a bit different. We don't have the buff/draft forces displayed. PTC-Pocket-Guide-6.pdf (blet234.org)
The display shows about 5 miles ahead of the train, the system actually "sees" out to 6 miles. The display only shows, at best, about a mile and a half of train. If your train is bigger than that, you determine the rear end's location on your own.
Most of the time, a system failure is temporary and it comes right back. You may have to reduce speed to restricted speed, sometimes come to a stop and reboot the system. Sometimes it won't come back and you need authority from the dispatcher to proceed. Our PTC help desk will determine when the system is not going to work and inform you when to contact the dispatcher to run without PTC.
It's currently an overlay. If a switch is opened within a block after the train has passed the last governing signal, PTC won't know it. It is something that is to be upgraded to allow UP to remove cab signalling.
This link is what happens when a switch is opened in front of a train. PTC did not initiate braking. The crew did, albeit to late to stop. Mississippi River cruises have new home at River Heritage Park | wqad.com (It does give the proper article on the derailment. I'm guessing because of multiple articles on the page, it gives that link headline.)
Normally when approaching a stop or restricted speed signal, you get one block of yellow (beginning at the signal displaying approach) up to the stop or restricted speed signal and hash box. Once in a while PTC will lose communication with a wayside signal and the block beyond the noncomm signal will have a yellow restricted speed hash box with a green track segment up to it. The wayside signals will be green, even at the noncomm signal. PTC will still enforce the restricted speed, so you have to slow down through that block.
Once in a while, the signal system will have hiccup and signals will go red for no reason, just as if there was an occupancy, like a rail breaking or a hand throw switch being opened. If the hiccup happens far enough ahead, a block or two, PTC will reflect that. Just a couple of weeks ago I saw a yellow hash box appear about two blocks ahead of me. I immediately set some air just in case. Then about 15 or 20 seconds the next block went to a yellow hash box and PTC determined we were going to fast to slow down to restricted speed and gave me a penalty brake. Another 15 or 20 seconds and the block we're in goes to a yellow hash box. We're still above restricted speed so PTC throws us into Emergency.
By this time we can see the next wayside signal. It's red and has we come to a stop short of it, it goes clear and all the hash boxes disappear. I recover the air, call the dispatcher and we proceed. Upon tie up I had to report to the PTC desk via computer form why I had a PTC braking event. I never heard anything back. Meanwhile, another train had the exact same problem at a different location. He got the third degree from the PTC desk, train management about what happened. He wasn't in trouble, but they were trying to determine what had happened. I expected the PTC desk to contact me by radio after I turned it in to the dispatcher, but they never did.
One more thing about PTC. It's supposed to enforce work zones. It will, although currently the engineer could acknowledge and confirm (allowing access to the zone) without the foreman doing anything other than giving verbal permission. Once in the zone and you stop to change crews, the new crew will have the work zone displayed, but most of the time PTC "remembers" where the train is. Since it's already logged permission into the zone, it will allow the train to move without any input from the new crew. The new crew has to get verbal permission to move while in the zone. PTC used to require the new crew to acknowledge/confirm their authority, but no longer does. This to me is a lapse, MOW may be crawling through the train and if the train takes off could lead to a dire outcome. Remember, the display only show about a mile and half of train. A 2 or 3 mile POS could be within a zone and it might not be displayed.
Enough for now, EMS next.
Jeff
Thank you Jeff.
Now, about EMS.
Since you asked about Trip Optimizer, I'll start with that.
It used to be the better of the two major systems, but LEADER is now by far better. CSX is supposed to be getting Trip Optimizer Zero to Zero (I think that's the name of it.) That is supposed to be able to start and stop the train.
From using it, I've come to the conclusion that Trip Optimizer (TO) is only a speed control system. It doesn't take into account where it is when it does things. It will throttle up going down hill and go into dynamics going up hill. We have certain areas where we have to follow directives on how to operate a train through those areas. Where to be in power or dynamcis, how much power or dynamics to use on head and midtrain/rear DPUs. TO is allowed to do whatever it wants to do. TO "plans" what speeds it expects to be doing for X number of miles ahead. It recalculates to a certain degree, but not enough that it does "questionable" things. If it's plan says it should be doing 35 mph at a certain point and it's doing less than that, it will throttle up, even if going down hill to reach 35 mph. If it is running faster than the calculated 35 mph, it will throttle down or go into dynamics, even going uphill. At least it shows on the screen what TO's predicted speed is going to be every quarter mile.
LEADER operates better. It seems to handle trains better, but it hasn't read local instructions either and does what it wants. It doesn't show what speed it expects to be at. LEADER has gotten me a PTC braking enforcement. I gave it control about 20 mph under the maximum speed and under a permanent speed restriction about a mile away. This is on the down hill side of a big hill. It promptly accelerated to within 5 mph of the current speed, equal to the next restriction. PTC calculated the train would be overspeed, which the way LEADER was running it was going to be. We were starting into a curve when I gave it control and had been looking back at my train. When I looked back at the screen I saw what it was doing I was reaching for the air brake handle when PTC gave me a 2 second warning then gave me a penalty. I never heard back on that, either.
The EMS, because of the way they handle trains will break trains up. We have an Operations Comand Center that will call anytime a train has a UDE and break-in-two. If the engineer was running the train manually, they have a litany of questions. What you were doing, speed, braking or not, throttle or not, etc. If EMS is running the train, no further questions. A UDE results in a mandatory download, often can be done remotely. They retain information on all break-in-twos as a result of human operation. Information on B-I-Ts caused by EMS operation are not retained. Makes one think they're trying to make a case for automation.
Trip Optimizer uses the locomotive's speedometer for opertion. LEADER uses the PTC speedometer. The speedometers use different inputs to determine speed. The locomotive speedometer is usually 1 or 2 mph faster than the PTC one. (Our old SD70-M models have another speedometer on the back wall computer. It determines speed differently than the locomotive or PTC speedometer. I've seen all three display a different speed, about 1 mph apart.)
Both systems can also be manipulated by someone in Omaha. They can have the systems run hot or cold. If the train is behind it's service schedule or the crew is short on time, it might be set to run hot. If it's not or early, it can be set to run cold. Usually about 40 mph for a train authorized to run 50 mph or higher.
We are to use it as much as possible and I do. If it wants to run 10 or 20 mph under speed, fine by me. If it wants me to set air, even when it doesn't need to, fine by me. I used to worry about having the conductor walk the train and fix something EMS broke, but no more. They want us to use it and they deserve what they get.
jeffhergert Now, about EMS. ... Both systems can also be manipulated by someone in Omaha. They can have the systems run hot or cold. If the train is behind it's service schedule or the crew is short on time, it might be set to run hot. If it's not or early, it can be set to run cold. Usually about 40 mph for a train authorized to run 50 mph or higher. ... Jeff
...
I never heard of anyone on CSX playing with the EMS systems to run them hot or cold. Maybe they were, but not that any complaints made it over the Dispatcher's wire. Of course I retired almost 5 years ago.
BaltACDI never heard of anyone on CSX playing with the EMS systems to run them hot or cold.
Remember the Mickey Mouse notch restrictions? A good PSR system can 'track' how long a 'scheduled' train can expect to take (net of all congestion, and adjusted for uncertainty like developing weather or other traffic or maintenance) and run a train that is 'ahead of schedule' slower at just the points the fuel savings are greatest to be 'just in time'.
Conversely a delayed train can be strategically accelerated... again, just at the points the fuel burn or brake wear is 'least costly'... to keep the train in its precision-scheduled 'window'.
Presumably this is what the OP's terms 'hot' and 'cold' refer to. This is an easy capability to add to even an unintelligent PSR scheduler connected to TO or LEADER; I know I'd program it instead of arbitrary notch restriction and I'm SURE I'd program it instead of arbitrary road-speed restriction.
Overmod BaltACD I never heard of anyone on CSX playing with the EMS systems to run them hot or cold. It's a PSR thing, and wouldn't make full sense in the absence of intelligent active schedule following. Remember the Mickey Mouse notch restrictions? A good PSR system can 'track' how long a 'scheduled' train can expect to take (net of all congestion, and adjusted for uncertainty like developing weather or other traffic or maintenance) and run a train that is 'ahead of schedule' slower at just the points the fuel savings are greatest to be 'just in time'. Conversely a delayed train can be strategically accelerated... again, just at the points the fuel burn or brake wear is 'least costly'... to keep the train in its precision-scheduled 'window'. Presumably this is what the OP's terms 'hot' and 'cold' refer to. This is an easy capability to add to even an unintelligent PSR scheduler connected to TO or LEADER; I know I'd program it instead of arbitrary notch restriction and I'm SURE I'd program it instead of arbitrary road-speed restriction.
BaltACD I never heard of anyone on CSX playing with the EMS systems to run them hot or cold.
It's a PSR thing, and wouldn't make full sense in the absence of intelligent active schedule following.
Active schedule following preceeded PSR by DECADES.
PSR has trashed schedules.
CSX for a period of time enforced MPH restrictions on Bulk Commodity trains, until controlled tests were conducted that proved those MPH restrictions were increasing fuel consumption by eliminating a sizeable chunk of kinetic energy in the operation of such trains.
SD70Dude PTC is of course not used in Canada, but CN's policy is to leave it turned on if the unit has it. There have been a number of cases where it has triggered a penalty or emergency brake application for no apparent reason, causing delays and requiring you to call the Diesel Doc to troubleshoot it and eventually cut it out in many cases.
Trip Optimizer can definitely be manipulated. That came from a company technician out riding trains gathering information. I think LEADER may also be capable of manipulation, however LEADER normally does not run underspeed the way TO does.
When approaching a location requireing either stop or restricted speed, both systems will get the train down to 30 mph at or before passing the yellow (approach) signal. They will also require manual control at some point. Often this point is so close that to stop or slow down to restricted speed, you'll need to use a lot of air. They seem to think you're going to race up to your stopping point. They also have no consideration for road crossings, either stopping or starting. I had LEADER techs riding one time and they couldn't understand why I was stopping so far from the signal, in some cases before the yellow signal. I told them we were too long to go all the way down, we would be blocking crossings.
Conversely on starting. We have a rule that if you're within about 3000' of a crossing, you are not to occupy the crossing until active warning devices (lights and/or gates) have operated enough to warn and/or stop road traffic or increase your speed by 5 mph. This usually means the gates are fully lowered. EMS does not know of such things. I've been considerably closer than 3000' but far enough back that EMS wants control. When I engage it, it immediately starts going to town.
Knowing how fast these systems will throttle up, I wonder how well the new TO will be starting trains. A few weeks ago, we were issued a rule requiring us to wait until we've seen the brake pipe rise on the EOT by 5 psi (summer) or 2 psi (winter).
I imagine, like so many other train handling rules, it'll either be changed again or won't apply to EMS operation.
As part of this, there are plenty of places where industry track switches and small sidings/set-outs have been eliminated. Industries and at least one shortline I know of (with license agreement or not) have been cut off in the rush to get PTC compatible. Don't use it? - you risk losing it... ($$$$)
mudchickenAs part of this, there are plenty of places where industry track switches and small sidings/set-outs have been eliminated. Industries and at least one shortline I know of (with license agreement or not) have been cut off in the rush to get PTC compatible. Don't use it? - you risk losing it... ($$$$)
As an aside - with all the disused industry spurs being removed and that carriers increasing the number of Defect Detectors crews are being faced with finding a defective car in their train and not having a nearby location to set the car out.
Having setout locations for Defect Detectors is not in the equation for installing them.
BaltACDHaving setout locations for Defect Detectors is not in the equation for installing them.
Overmod BaltACD Having setout locations for Defect Detectors is not in the equation for installing them. Imagine the fun when we get to continuous monitoring... and the rule gets to be 'let it run until it turns critical, then STOP and set it out immediately'.
BaltACD Having setout locations for Defect Detectors is not in the equation for installing them.
Imagine the fun when we get to continuous monitoring... and the rule gets to be 'let it run until it turns critical, then STOP and set it out immediately'.
That exists today. Genuine overheated bearings and/or wrung journals get rewheeled 'in place' when it is determined that the car is unable to traverse the next 10 miles or more (or even 1000 feet) to a set out location. It generally creates one or more recrews on the line where it happens.
Crews do not want to accept responsibility for moving a car they suspect may be dangerous to move.
WHAT! Mechanical things fail?! That's not what the book says. The book says it's still good for another 10K miles. Besides, the salesman promised.
With them removing set out locations, it not only removes the places to set out cars but also reduces where MOW can stash track machinery.
Years ago, in my conductor days, we were heading west when the dispatcher called us and had us stop to check for a hot bearing at Fairfax IA. They said if the bearing was hot we were going to set it out at the next available spot. I checked it. It was warmer than the others, but not enough to melt the tempstik. I reported my findings and it was decided to set out the car. Looking at our bulletins, we determined that the next spot we could set it out was at Tama IA, about 40 miles ahead. There were, at that time, 2 spots between us and Tama but they were all blocked with track machinery.
BaltACD Overmod BaltACD Having setout locations for Defect Detectors is not in the equation for installing them. Imagine the fun when we get to continuous monitoring... and the rule gets to be 'let it run until it turns critical, then STOP and set it out immediately'. That exists today. Genuine overheated bearings and/or wrung journals get rewheeled 'in place' when it is determined that the car is unable to traverse the next 10 miles or more (or even 1000 feet) to a set out location. It generally creates one or more recrews on the line where it happens. Crews do not want to accept responsibility for moving a car they suspect may be dangerous to move.
A couple of years ago, while heading west, the dispatcher called and said the hot bearing desk spotted a car that was warm. We were to reduce speed to 30 mph to the next hot box detector.
Going over the detector, we received a defect detected message. (Procedure is to clear the detector and then stop unless the alarm is for dragging equipment. Dragging equipment, which has it's own message requires an immediate stop.) Once clear, the message was for a hot box on the south rail so many axles back from the head end. The conductor started walking and found it was on a tank car within a control point. There was grease coming out of the bearing. A manager and mechanical people were on the way.
When the manager showed up, he consulted with others via phone on what to do. It was decided to move the car to the next available set out point about 8 miles ahead. I was instructed to start ahead and go 5 mph. I asked the conductor where she was. She was in the manager's vehicle on US 30 on the north side of the tracks. The highway is adjacent to the tracks, there are no railroad access roads along the tracks in that section.
I'm shaking my head at this move. We're moving a car that's oozing grease out of a roller bearing journal with no one actually watching it in case it seizes up. Pretty soon I'm told to pick up the speed to 10 mph. We go about 2 miles when the wheel truck shows up. I spot the car at the next crossing for them to inspect. They decide to rewheel the truck right there on the main track.
We don't stay for the entire show. We're instructed to change trains with one coming up behind us that has more time to work.
jeffhergertWHAT! Mechanical things fail?! That's not what the book says. The book says it's still good for another 10K miles. Besides, the salesman promised. With them removing set out locations, it not only removes the places to set out cars but also reduces where MOW can stash track machinery. Years ago, in my conductor days, we were heading west when the dispatcher called us and had us stop to check for a hot bearing at Fairfax IA. They said if the bearing was hot we were going to set it out at the next available spot. I checked it. It was warmer than the others, but not enough to melt the tempstik. I reported my findings and it was decided to set out the car. Looking at our bulletins, we determined that the next spot we could set it out was at Tama IA, about 40 miles ahead. There were, at that time, 2 spots between us and Tama but they were all blocked with track machinery. Jeff
When I was still working - if a 'hot box' was found by a crew (visual or defect detector - no difference) and it needed to be set out. Crew could move it to the set out location at 'walking speed' - a speed not exceeding 4 MPH. When the next set out location is 20 miles down the way - it could take a while.
I recall on more than one occasion that the 'Over the Road' car dept truck being sent to a line of road road crossing to rewheel a car with a hot box.
Contractors, such as Hulcher get called to assist mechanical forces in changing out a locked traction motor and trading it for a idler wheel set to permit the locomotive to move off the main track.
They have the "Hot Bearing Desk" that watches all the hot box detectors. They will note cars that are warm, but not warm enough to set off the detector. They send a message to the dispatcher who notifies the train. The best one I remember is once we the dispatcher called us. We had to have her wait until we cleared the detector (to hear the exit message) before having her tell us what she wanted. We cleared, got a "no defects" message. Then she told us to stop and inspect a car the bearing desk had flagged. It turned out to be a hand brake
Lately, they've been giving out many "Hot Wheel" alarms. A hot wheel is different in that we can go 30 mph to the next detector. If it isn't flagged a second time, the train may resume speed. The only exception is you can't pull a hot wheel through a through truss bridge. If there's one before the next detector, a train has to stop and inspect. These are all through the dispatcher, the detectors rarely will give an immediate alarm on a hot wheel.
Most hot wheels are caused by either a hand brake or a sticking brake, one that hasn't fully released from use of the automatic air brake. I and many other engineers when receiving a hot wheel alert will make a good heavy set, even if it means stopping, to "clean up" the air brakes on the cars. Of course it that won't work for a hand brake.
jeffhergertThey have the "Hot Bearing Desk" that watches all the hot box detectors. They will note cars that are warm, but not warm enough to set off the detector. They send a message to the dispatcher who notifies the train. The best one I remember is once we the dispatcher called us. We had to have her wait until we cleared the detector (to hear the exit message) before having her tell us what she wanted. We cleared, got a "no defects" message. Then she told us to stop and inspect a car the bearing desk had flagged. It turned out to be a hand brake Lately, they've been giving out many "Hot Wheel" alarms. A hot wheel is different in that we can go 30 mph to the next detector. If it isn't flagged a second time, the train may resume speed. The only exception is you can't pull a hot wheel through a through truss bridge. If there's one before the next detector, a train has to stop and inspect. These are all through the dispatcher, the detectors rarely will give an immediate alarm on a hot wheel. Most hot wheels are caused by either a hand brake or a sticking brake, one that hasn't fully released from use of the automatic air brake. I and many other engineers when receiving a hot wheel alert will make a good heavy set, even if it means stopping, to "clean up" the air brakes on the cars. Of course it that won't work for a hand brake. Jeff
On CSX the 'regular' Defect Detectors play a greeting on the road radio channel at the approach of a train stating the Detectors location, once the train has passed the Detector it will issue a Defect Report that will state 'No Defects' if that is the case or identify the offending condition by axle number - I believe it will transmit up to 5 defective axle locations by axle number. If there are more defects the defect report will then state inspect entire train. To my knowledge the regular detectors are not linked to the Headquarters Mechanical Desk.
The WILD (Wheel Impact Load Detectors) are linked real time to the Headquarters Mechanical Desk - When a WILD defect is found messages are sent to the Dispatcher of the territory as well as the Chief Dispatchers desk for the territory. While WILD detectors have 5 levels of messages - the innocuous 3 level are not communicated (No Exceptions, Very Minor Defect and Minor Defect) to Dispatchers but notations are placed against the specific car numbers in the Car & Train data system. Moderate and Severe Defects are communicated to the Dispatchers who are required to notify the affected trains. Moderate WILD defects can continue to the destination terminal at 30 MPH, AFTER having been inspected by the crew. Severe defects are to be set out at the nearest location and the train is not to exceed 10 MPH to that location after the car has been inspected by the crew and found safe to move.
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