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BNSF selling that part of the Seattle to Vancvouer, BC from Fraser River north.

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BNSF selling that part of the Seattle to Vancvouer, BC from Fraser River north.
Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, July 5, 2021 7:46 PM

Why the the BNSF sell that part of the New Westminster Sub from Fraser River to Vancouver, BC?

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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, July 5, 2021 8:44 PM

This is news to me.  

CN is by far the primary user of this line, as most of BNSF's Vancouver traffic is interchange from CN and CP, which does not use the line west of Sapperton Jct (CN interchange trains don't even need to cross the bridge).  

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 11:28 AM
 

SD70Dude

This is news to me.  

CN is by far the primary user of this line, as most of BNSF's Vancouver traffic is interchange from CN and CP, which does not use the line west of Sapperton Jct (CN interchange trains don't even need to cross the bridge).  

 

Yeah news to me as well.. Also I think BNSF might make a go in the future at Port of Vancouver. Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought BNSF still owns a small section of track in Vancouver. According to the BNSF subdivsion map it's called the Burrard Inlet.

 
 
 
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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 4:27 PM

BNSF considers the Port of Vancouver, BC as one of "their" ports in their network.

Here is a link to their ports served map:

http://www.bnsf.com/ship-with-bnsf/rail-development/bnsf-ports.html

 

Herw is a link to the BNSF Ports page for what they show for Vancouver WA:

http://www.bnsf.com/ship-with-bnsf/rail-development/pdf/port-of-vancouver.pdf

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 4:29 PM
 

kgbw49

BNSF considers the Port of Vancouver, BC as one of "their" ports in their network.

Herw is a link to the BNSF Ports page:

http://www.bnsf.com/ship-with-bnsf/rail-development/pdf/port-of-vancouver.pdf

 

Wrong Vancouver Kgbw49. That's Vancouver Washington. Which is the original Vancouver on the West Coast.

 
 
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Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 4:53 PM

HmmNo sign of any TCA activity or filings.  (Canada's hybrid version of the STB) 

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 6:15 PM

Sorry for the confusion, 9500, but the first link does show Vancouver BC as a destination port on BNSF's system.

The second link does show Vancouver, WA. They did not have any for Vancouver BC.

However, Vancouver WA does have a wide array of services besides the services at Tacoma and Seattle, including coal. But their expansion attempts in Washington have been met with resistance by the State of WA in past years.

I would not be surprised to see more BNSF export trains of coal in particular end up in Vancouver BC, and eventually more intermodal given the State of WA reluctance to endorse expansion.

Many movies and TV shows are made iin Vancouver. Probably more import-export activity will follow. BNSF would be wise to take advantage of the access the New Wesminster Sub gives them to Vancouver BC thanks to the foresight of that Canadian James J Hill.

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Posted by Vermontanan2 on Wednesday, July 7, 2021 12:53 AM

SD60MAC9500
 

Yeah news to me as well.. Also I think BNSF might make a go in the future at Port of Vancouver. Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought BNSF still owns a small section of track in Vancouver. According to the BNSF subdivsion map it's called the Burrard Inlet.

AFAIK, BNSF still owns the track from the Fraser River Bridge almost all the way (to "CN Jct.) in Vancouver.  This track was leased to CN in 2006, and they dispatch and maintain it.  Yes, BNSF still maintains the line to Burrard Inlet (CN Waterfront Yard), as well as yard trackage at New Westminster and Sapperton.

According to the 2021 "Canadian Trackside Guide," CN's Yale subdivision goes from Boston Bar to the Fraser River Bridge, and then starts up again at CN Jct. for the 1.2 miles to "Vancouver."  From the Fraser River Bridge to CN Jct. is shown as the "New Westminster Subdivision" as when BNSF dispatched it with a notation "BNSF New Westminster Sub."

It's true that most BNSF activity stays on the east/south side of the Fraser River Bridge.  Pre-Covid, usually three trains daily would originate in the terminal to run south: Two from Thornton Yard (CN) and one from Brownsville (with CP traffic).  Only unit trains from CP via Coquitlam would need to use the bridge.  

The big question is:  Will the parties involved (especially the goverment entity that owns it) ever replace the Fraser River Bridge?  A perpetual 10 MPH bottleneck...

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Wednesday, July 7, 2021 9:35 AM
 

Vermontanan2

 

 
SD60MAC9500
 

Yeah news to me as well.. Also I think BNSF might make a go in the future at Port of Vancouver. Correct me if I'm wrong. I thought BNSF still owns a small section of track in Vancouver. According to the BNSF subdivsion map it's called the Burrard Inlet.

 

 

AFAIK, BNSF still owns the track from the Fraser River Bridge almost all the way (to "CN Jct.) in Vancouver.  This track was leased to CN in 2006, and they dispatch and maintain it.  Yes, BNSF still maintains the line to Burrard Inlet (CN Waterfront Yard), as well as yard trackage at New Westminster and Sapperton.

According to the 2021 "Canadian Trackside Guide," CN's Yale subdivision goes from Boston Bar to the Fraser River Bridge, and then starts up again at CN Jct. for the 1.2 miles to "Vancouver."  From the Fraser River Bridge to CN Jct. is shown as the "New Westminster Subdivision" as when BNSF dispatched it with a notation "BNSF New Westminster Sub."

It's true that most BNSF activity stays on the east/south side of the Fraser River Bridge.  Pre-Covid, usually three trains daily would originate in the terminal to run south: Two from Thornton Yard (CN) and one from Brownsville (with CP traffic).  Only unit trains from CP via Coquitlam would need to use the bridge.  

The big question is:  Will the parties involved (especially the goverment entity that owns it) ever replace the Fraser River Bridge?  A perpetual 10 MPH bottleneck...

--Mark Meyer

 

Thanks and I was thinking BNSF still owned that track being leased to CN. The BNSF map confused me a bit. As it shows ownership ending at the Fraser River.

 
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Posted by SD70Dude on Saturday, July 10, 2021 7:24 PM

The current CN Yale Sub timetable ends at Douglas Island, which is the start/end of double track CTC on the east side of Thornton Yard.  

Our New Westminster Sub extends from Fraser River Jct (mile 142.9) to CN Jct (mile 155.3), presumably these are BNSF mileages from somewhere in the U.S. as they do not correspond to the Yale Sub miles (Douglas Island is mile 112.8).  The New Westminster Sub is CTC from the Fraser River bridge to Still Creek (mile 153.9) with "block signals" for the final stretch to CN Jct, presumably this is ABS territory, the only such section of track on CN in Canada, in fact our version of the CROR does not contain the ABS rules.  

BNSF signal indications are used on the New Westminster Sub, and are explained in our Vancouver terminal manual.  

Our Vancouver yard maps show a small BNSF yard to the south of our Main Yard and Pacific Central Station.  I'm not sure how the waterfront trackage is operated or by whom, but there is still an interlocked diamond where the CN/BNSF lead crosses CP just east of the Centerm container port.

I've never worked in the Vancouver area, this info is only as good as Google Earth and the current company documentation I am reading.  

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, July 13, 2021 9:19 PM

BNSF will be using its track to Vancouver, BC for a long time. I would not be surprised if they expand their presence there over the long term for export and import business.

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/776637/

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Posted by Vermontanan2 on Tuesday, July 13, 2021 11:06 PM

Here's an interesting document that explains the trackage in Vancouver at the end of the BNSF line into the city (now controlled by CN).  The document was created in 2006, probably just before the track was leased.

https://vancouver.ca/docs/eastern-core/false-creek-flats-analysis.pdf

In regard to the New Westminster Fraser River Bridge, when it was opened in 1904, it was a joint rail/highway bridge.  It became rail only in 1937 when the Pattullo Bridge was opened.  True to form (highways always get priority), the Pattullo highway bridge should have a replacement in 2024:

https://www.pattullobridgereplacement.ca/

Here's a link that suggests that someone in the Federal government thinks capacity issues on the New Westminster Fraser River Bridge should be at least studied:

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/biens-property/construction/new-westminster-eng.html#s4

It states that the bridge will be at capacity by 2030.  With its 10 MPH speed restriction, for the bridge 2030 is now.

While it doesn't show all the BNSF access over CN and CN leased track, this interactive map could be helpful:

https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/

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Posted by Vermontanan2 on Tuesday, July 13, 2021 11:42 PM

kgbw49

BNSF will be using its track to Vancouver, BC for a long time. I would not be surprised if they expand their presence there over the long term For export and import business.

BNSF did raise the clearances on the tunnels on its Bellingham subdivision in 2017 between Burlington and Bellingham to accommodate doublestack equipment, if the opportunity should arise.

In the mean time, BNSF has a monopoly on interchange to the US west of the Cascade/Coast range so the line indeed has a future rooted in perpetuity.  Ironic that pre-COVID, 14 of the 16 weekly intercity passenger train departures (14 of 17 in the summer) from Pacific Central Station in Vancouver used the BNSF route south to the U.S.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 1:05 AM

Vermontanan2

BNSF did raise the clearances on the tunnels on its Bellingham subdivision in 2017 between Burlington and Bellingham to accommodate doublestack equipment, if the opportunity should arise.

I've seen photos of double stacked trash containers going through White Rock, so the increased clearance is already being put to good use.  

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Vermontanan2 on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 1:09 PM

SD70Dude

I've seen photos of double stacked trash containers going through White Rock, so the increased clearance is already being put to good use.  

Good to hear.  Not a surprise since containerized BC garbage has been trucked to Sumas, WA and loaded on trains (for Roosevelt, WA) for years.

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