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Inquiring about radio frequencies

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Inquiring about radio frequencies
Posted by Lithonia Operator on Wednesday, June 16, 2021 11:52 PM

I am wondering if you guys can tell me which frequencies I'll want on the Cardinal. I assume that several different CSX road channels will come into play. ?? And I'm wondering what the Amtrak crew uses among themselves within the train.

Balt? Larry? Anyone?

I need the actual 8-character frequency numbers. XXX.XXXX

All help will be greatly appreciated.

Pittsburgh and Illinois have been great. I've gotten some good pix here in IL; now we are in Galesburg, which is very interesting. I shot from that bridge across the yard, but that was a bit scary, as people haul butt on that road. I was concerned most for my wife, sitting in the car with the flashers on. Impressive views, though. Yes

My new scanner caught up with me here in G'burg; I look forward to using it on the Cardinal.

 

Still in training.


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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, June 17, 2021 7:16 AM

Each Dispatching district has its own set of channels as well as each major terminal.  All channels used are among the standard AAR channels. 

Within that Dispatching District there will be on channel that is the Road Channel that all paries in the field should monitor and is used to announce signals or authority entrance or exit as well as communication between the engineer and conductor on the ground. 

There is a Dispatchers channel where the Dispatcher will conduct the business of issuing authorities etc. so that the parties will not get 'walked on' by others.

There is a MofW channel for use by MofW personnel.  There are Yard channels for use by yard crews and Yardmasters in their switching actions.  

The specific channels used will vary - for employees, the specific chanelles are identified in the Employee Timetable.

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, June 17, 2021 9:16 AM

As Balt mentioned, all railroads use channels in the standard AAR configuration.  Those channels are numbered, and are often represented by a four digit number.  The first two are the transmit, the second two are receive.  So if a railroad is using AAR68 simplex, it will be represented as "6868."

I've heard the DS tell a crew to "switch over to 47" (example number) for DS work, as opposed to "4747".

There were just under 100 AAR frequencies.  With narrowbanding, that's been essentially doubled, with the new frequencies numbered in the 100's.

Lists of the AAR frequencies are readily available on-line.

As for the frequencies you'd need for the Cardinal, the ETTs are often available on-line for the various railroads and divisions.  

It would be nice to be able to tell you that one or two frequencies would work for the entire route, but between likely changing host railroads plus the fact that some portions of current railroads still use the frequencies of their predecessors, that's not going to happen.

A short answer is that Amtrak (thus the Cardinal) simply uses the road and dispatcher channels for the host railroad.  If you already know that, you're all set.

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Thursday, June 17, 2021 2:22 PM

Do I guess correctly that the conductor won't want to tell me?

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, June 17, 2021 5:06 PM

And possibly Homeland Security? 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, June 17, 2021 5:32 PM

Our radios take six digit AAR codes, most channels are in the form 0xx0xx.  For example, CN 1 is AAR 087087, or 8787 on an older radio.  

I don't actually know our exact frequencies offhand and it is quite possible that Amtrak's train crews don't either.  

The Canadian Trackside Guide (published annually by the Bytown Railway Society) always contains a detailed list of radio frequencies.  While it probably wouldn't help you I'm sure there are similar guides available for American railroads.  

As for security, the Trackside Guide lists Industry Canada and your FCC as references for its radio frequency list.  Even without the exact channels it would not be hard to note what is being said on each one once your scanner is tuned to a band assigned to railroads.  

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by rdamon on Thursday, June 17, 2021 5:54 PM

Set your scanner to scan the whole band.  If that is what they are using to talk it should hit.  Think Uniden calls it "Close Call"

They may be using a 900MHz digital for internal chatter.

If they are broadcasting in the clear then DHS should not care.  They have enough other problems.

 

Here is another reference link

http://www.on-track-on-line.com/amtfreq-wsch.shtml#car

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, June 17, 2021 6:30 PM

Here's the list per RadioReference.com:

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?aid=7747

As noted, the crews probably won't know. In fact, their radios (particularly the handhelds) will likely have the primary channel as channel 1, maybe the dispatcher as channel 2, etc.  

Our locomotive radios, while capable of being set by AAR channel, are also programmed so channel 1 is our road channel, 2 is the repeater, 3 is yard, 4 is for MWHA, and 5 is for the MWHA repeater.

I have my own radio for the railroad, and beyond the five channels we use, I have local CSX, then a bunch of fire and EMS frequencies. So I pasted a list of which is which to the front of the radio, but it's by name, not frequency.

If you're riding a train from end to end, and over several host railroads, loading all the AAR channels is a great idea.  If you're simply listening in a given area, you can get by with just putting in the frequencies you need.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Thursday, June 17, 2021 7:33 PM

Thanks all! Lotsa great info. 

rdamon, that's a particularly great link. Thanks!

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, June 17, 2021 8:31 PM

rdamon
Here is another reference link

I had a feeling that someone had assembled such a list.  That is often the case.

You can plainly see the predecessor road legacy.

You might be well off to program all of the AAR channels and carry the  chart in rdamon's link with you.  

 

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Thursday, June 17, 2021 10:03 PM

I heard quite a bit of talk.

enjoying ride, ready for some sleep

I think we're still in IN.

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Friday, June 18, 2021 6:59 AM

Woke up in KY. Now in WV. Beautiful scenery.

Lots of signal calling on scanner. I don't get how conductor can be confirming the signals when she is back in the train. To always be in position to see signals, that seems almost impossible. Now maybe she rides up front most of the time, but I've seen her walk through this sleeper at least twice.

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, June 18, 2021 7:16 AM

Lithonia Operator
I don't get how conductor can be confirming the signals when she is back in the train.

She may be simply parroting the engineer's calls to indicate that she heard him.

A few years ago an engineer had a problem wherein he wasn't with it.  As he was approaching Syracuse, other crews at Dewitt yard noticed that signals weren't being called and were able to take action to ensure that nothing untoward happened, and it didn't.  Sorry for the suspense, but I don't recall the outcome.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Friday, June 18, 2021 7:31 AM

Apparently we are train #2 here on CSX. I assume the opposing Cardinal is #1. The engineer keeps referring to us as "2 East." Wouldn't an even # mean saying "east" is unnecessary?

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, June 18, 2021 8:02 AM

If you are on double track, he's no doubt referring to the track number as he calls signals.  The southernmost track will be #2.  Generally speaking, the railroads do right hand running, so eastbound, you'll be on track #2.

Of course, with CTC, etc, they can run on either track, so it's possible you could hear "1 east" as well.

I don't know how other railroads do it, but on CSX, the train symbol is "P" plus the Amtrak train number.

Again, if you're on double track, you could hear a freight call "1 west" as you're hearing your train call "2 east."

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Friday, June 18, 2021 9:53 AM

Thanks! Now I get it.

Still in training.


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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, June 18, 2021 3:43 PM

tree68
Lithonia Operator
I don't get how conductor can be confirming the signals when she is back in the train.

She may be simply parroting the engineer's calls to indicate that she heard him.

Exactly.  This is also how freight crews worked during the caboose era, when the tail end crew would rarely have been in a position to see the signal before the head end took it.  

In train order operation there were signals that the crew was supposed to exchange when approaching certain stations or meeting points on passenger trains.  The Conductor would 'play' the signal on the air communication line, and the Engineer would make the appropriate response with the whistle.  

There have been many incidents over the years that could have been prevented by proper communication and reminders between crew members.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, June 18, 2021 3:51 PM

SD70Dude
Exactly.  This is also how freight crews worked during the caboose era, when the tail end crew would rarely have been in a position to see the signal before the head end took it.  

I recall a story about a conductor being grilled by a supervisor.  This was in the caboose era.

The supervisor asked the conductor what signal indication he expected to see.  The conductor replied red/stop.  The supervisor was aghast until he figured out (or was informed) that the conductor was in the caboose, thus would see a stop signal...

LarryWhistling
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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, June 18, 2021 4:54 PM

tree68
 
Lithonia Operator
I don't get how conductor can be confirming the signals when she is back in the train. 

She may be simply parroting the engineer's calls to indicate that she heard him.

A few years ago an engineer had a problem wherein he wasn't with it.  As he was approaching Syracuse, other crews at Dewitt yard noticed that signals weren't being called and were able to take action to ensure that nothing untoward happened, and it didn't.  Sorry for the suspense, but I don't recall the outcome.

Conductors are supposed to be Qualified on the routes that they operate.  Conductor is in a position to KNOW signal XYZ should be being called.  If the signal doesn't get called in the time frame the conductor would have expected it to be called - He can call the Engineer and inquire as to what signal XYZ displayed.

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Posted by rdamon on Friday, June 18, 2021 9:01 PM

SD70Dude

 The Conductor would 'play' the signal on the air communication line, and the Engineer would make the appropriate response with the whistle.  

 

Are you referring to a brake pipe pressure reduction?

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Saturday, June 19, 2021 1:04 PM

It turns out my scanner already has in it ALL of the railroad frequencies!

So I'm in good shape.

Now the manual isn't great, but I'm getting there ...

Still in training.


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Posted by SD70Dude on Saturday, June 19, 2021 5:06 PM

rdamon
SD70Dude

 The Conductor would 'play' the signal on the air communication line, and the Engineer would make the appropriate response with the whistle.  

Are you referring to a brake pipe pressure reduction?

I forgot to specify that this was only on passenger trains, which had an air signal line running the length of the train completely separate from the brake pipe.  Must have been in a hurry, I'll edit my post.  

On most freight trains the tail end crew had no way of knowing what the head end saw in the pre-radio era.  If the Conductor thought the head end was not taking appropriate actions or disobeying their train orders his only option was to stop the train with the caboose's brake valve.  Older cabooses had a more complex valve that allowed you to set a lighter brake initially instead of immediately placing the train into emergency.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Saturday, June 19, 2021 8:29 PM

We got lucky and saw a freight train from Hawk's Nest Overlook on the New River in WV today. It was not great light, but I got some pix.

My scanner was on for the entire hour as we waited. I never heard anything at all, no signals called. But a few minutes after the train passed, I heard, surprisingly LOUD & CLEAR, a hotbox detector (no defects).

Are the blocks super long there? Is it perhaps dark territory? (I doubt it.)  Or is it that the engineer doesn't do that on radio, since the conductor is right there with him in the cab? Is all of it recorded?

The scanner was turned up loud, and all was dead quiet until the detector bot spoke.

Still in training.


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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, June 19, 2021 9:43 PM

Lithonia Operator
We got lucky and saw a freight train from Hawk's Nest Overlook on the New River in WV today. It was not great light, but I got some pix.

My scanner was on for the entire hour as we waited. I never heard anything at all, no signals called. But a few minutes after the train passed, I heard, surprisingly LOUD & CLEAR, a hotbox detector (no defects).

Are the blocks super long there? Is it perhaps dark territory? (I doubt it.)  Or is it that the engineer doesn't do that on radio, since the conductor is right there with him in the cab? Is all of it recorded?

The scanner was turned up loud, and all was dead quiet until the detector bot spoke.

Calling signals on the road radio channel is not just for the conductors benefit.  It is for the benefit of ALL employees on the railroad that monitor the road channel as a adjunct to their other job duties.  

A MofW employee holding a track authority between A and F and hear a train calling a singal at D - after saying WTF, will or should initiate actions to #1 protect himself from potential collision, and #2 find out from the control point what is going on and #3 potentially contact the train calling the signals to find out what is going on.

I have no knowledge of CSX operations in the New River area.

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, June 19, 2021 9:59 PM

In dark territory, CSX crews call designated stations, denoted by a sign at trackside and listed in the ETT.  "CSXT 1234 Q621 South passing BRAD."  

I have no idea if the area in question here dark or signalled.

I don't usually listen to the on-line scanner for Deshler, but those that do occasionally report that they didn't hear a given train call any signals.  Whether the crews failed to call the signals, or the scanner just didn't pick up the traffic is unknown.

 

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Lithonia Operator on Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:39 PM

Today I was by the CSX route thru the New River Gorge. I saw no trains, and the scanner caught nothing except for one exception.

Twice in about 30mins. I got pure static on a channel which was shown to be "AAR" followed by a long line of characters, I think mostly numeric. what was that likely to be? Some type of required test pulse?

There was a satellite dish on the CSX  MoW building there. Maybe that plsyed a part?

Pure static, nothing else.

Still in training.


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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:04 PM

Lithonia Operator
Today I was by the CSX route thru the New River Gorge. I saw no trains, and the scanner caught nothing except for one exception.

Twice in about 30mins. I got pure static on a channel which was shown to be "AAR" followed by a long line of characters, I think mostly numeric. what was that likely to be? Some type of required test pulse?

There was a satellite dish on the CSX  MoW building there. Maybe that plsyed a part?

Pure static, nothing else.

Pure static 'can' be a defective radio transmitting.  The worst thing that can happen is for a radio to have its transmit button stuck on  - no matter if it is actually transmitting voice or static.  Whoever has the defective radio cannot be contacted, as when the radio transmits, they are not playing any inbound communicaions so the holder of the radio can be contacted.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:12 PM

Lithonia Operator
Twice in about 30mins. I got pure static on a channel which was shown to be "AAR" followed by a long line of characters, I think mostly numeric. what was that likely to be? Some type of required test pulse?

http://www.fwarailfan.net/atcs.htm

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Posted by tree68 on Sunday, June 20, 2021 10:33 PM

Lithonia Operator
Pure static, nothing else.

Propogation has been kind of wonky for the past couple of days.  While listening in on a ham radio net this morning, I watched the signal strength from the repeater rise and fall.  In fact, sometimes the signal would drop out entirely.

The railroad frequencies are VHF High Band, not far from the 2 meter ham frequencies.  Thus it's entirely possible the same thing was happening to you.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

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