Still work needs to be done but looks like SD has done a real decent job bringing this former weed choked Milwaukee Branch back from the dead. Given the Western portion that enters Rapid City, SD is out of operation. The line was in far worse shape when the Milwaukee Road was sold to Soo Line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aksXSw2-D4Y
Do they eventually hope to reextend to Rapid City? Yes, that's a lot of mileage, but the roadbed is still there, and Rapid City looks like it generates a pretty decent car count from a number of industries. And it looks like the rails are still in place to about Kadoka, so it's only about ~100 miles...
Shrike Arghast Do they eventually hope to reextend to Rapid City? Yes, that's a lot of mileage, but the roadbed is still there, and Rapid City looks like it generates a pretty decent car count from a number of industries. And it looks like the rails are still in place to about Kadoka, so it's only about ~100 miles...
OK, so here is the update as far as I know. WATCO bought the line from the state and the name will be changed soon to something else. As part of the purchase agreement WATCO committed to I think x $million a year dedicated to upgrading the track more. SD also to kick in money in future track upgrades. I believe that is only to operate the line to the current end of line, they did not say much about extending but WSOR has extended on bare roadbed before so I would not rule it out if new clients build and ask for them specifically. There is always hope I guess.
CMStPnP Shrike Arghast Do they eventually hope to reextend to Rapid City? Yes, that's a lot of mileage, but the roadbed is still there, and Rapid City looks like it generates a pretty decent car count from a number of industries. And it looks like the rails are still in place to about Kadoka, so it's only about ~100 miles... OK, so here is the update as far as I know. WATCO bought the line from the state and the name will be changed soon to something else. As part of the purchase agreement WATCO committed to I think x $million a year dedicated to upgrading the track more. SD also to kick in money in future track upgrades. I believe that is only to operate the line to the current end of line, they did not say much about extending but WSOR has extended on bare roadbed before so I would not rule it out if new clients build and ask for them specifically. There is always hope I guess.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Is Kadoka the present end of service?
MidlandMike Is Kadoka the present end of service?
While Kadoka is the official west end of the line, the track is paved over by US 83 near Vivian. The last revenue customer is the shuttle grain train facility at Presho. Kennebec and Kimball are the other shuttle grain train facilities west of Mitchell.
Mark Meyer
Murphy Siding The line will never extend to Rapid City for two reasons. The last couple miles of ROW into town have been covered by urban growth. Rapid City really doesn't have a lot of rail traffic. What is there, like wood pulp and bentonite from the northern Black Hills and Colony Wyoming is adequetly hauled by the existing Rapid City, Pierre & Eastern Railroad. *grew up just east of Rapid City along the Milwaukee line near Murphy Siding*
The line will never extend to Rapid City for two reasons. The last couple miles of ROW into town have been covered by urban growth. Rapid City really doesn't have a lot of rail traffic. What is there, like wood pulp and bentonite from the northern Black Hills and Colony Wyoming is adequetly hauled by the existing Rapid City, Pierre & Eastern Railroad. *grew up just east of Rapid City along the Milwaukee line near Murphy Siding*
Murphy,
I don't understand this. Evidently the track is out of service from Mitchell to Rapid City and yet the RC,P&E is providing local rail freight service in the vicinity of Rapid City? Is that correct?
Then how is the RC,P&E connecting to the outside rail system? Is there another line into Rapid City?
I guess I already found the answer to my question here. I found an online State Rail map that indicates that the former C&NW line to R.C. is active but the former MILW is only active to Kadoka. That map might already be out of date since a couple of you have suggested it's not active that far. Mark Meyer said it's paved over on U.S. 83
Fred M CainThen how is the RC,P&E connecting to the outside rail system? Is there another line into Rapid City?
chutton01 Fred M Cain Then how is the RC,P&E connecting to the outside rail system? Is there another line into Rapid City? The RCPE is actually a fairly decent sized railroad (under G&W) spanning 3 states with a number of interchange connections.
Fred M Cain Then how is the RC,P&E connecting to the outside rail system? Is there another line into Rapid City?
The RCPE is actually a fairly decent sized railroad (under G&W) spanning 3 states with a number of interchange connections.
The Official S.D. State Rail map shows the west end of the former Milwaukee line "railbanked" into Rapid City. The fact that they show that on theeir map seems to suggest that they might've had a plan for it at one time.
But with the former C&NW line in operation by the RCP&E there is almost certainly insufficient demand for two lines to R.C. Perhaps if some big industry would locate along there but that seems unlikely to happen.
Remember, a few years ago, The CPR planned to revive one of those lines to send their reach into the coal fields in Wyoming. I think maybe it was a shortline that started this (D&M maybe) then the CPR took over. There was a big fuss over it. The people of Rochester, MN raised hell over the possibility of coal trains rumbling through town. There was litigation filed to try and kill the plan.
They fought so hard to stop it that the CPR finally just gave up. And now with "climate change" anxiety growing among us, the future of Powder River coal looks bleak.
Looking on-line, it seems the DM&E was the 'shortline' planning to build into the Powder River Basin, and while they got approvals (I recall this saga pretty well, following it at the time), financing became the hold-up - such that CP eventually brought them out. Then, in 2014, CP sold off much of the DM&E lines to G&W which formed...the RCPE!I'm not seeing much of a call for increased capacity into the Powder River basin at this time, but who knows...
Fred M Cain Murphy, I guess I already found the answer to my question here. I found an online State Rail map that indicates that the former C&NW line to R.C. is active but the former MILW is only active to Kadoka. That map might already be out of date since a couple of you have suggested it's not active that far. Mark Meyer said it's paved over on U.S. 83
Fred M Cain chutton01 Fred M Cain Then how is the RC,P&E connecting to the outside rail system? Is there another line into Rapid City? The RCPE is actually a fairly decent sized railroad (under G&W) spanning 3 states with a number of interchange connections. The Official S.D. State Rail map shows the west end of the former Milwaukee line "railbanked" into Rapid City. The fact that they show that on theeir map seems to suggest that they might've had a plan for it at one time. But with the former C&NW line in operation by the RCP&E there is almost certainly insufficient demand for two lines to R.C. Perhaps if some big industry would locate along there but that seems unlikely to happen. Remember, a few years ago, The CPR planned to revive one of those lines to send their reach into the coal fields in Wyoming. I think maybe it was a shortline that started this (D&M maybe) then the CPR took over. There was a big fuss over it. The people of Rochester, MN raised hell over the possibility of coal trains rumbling through town. There was litigation filed to try and kill the plan. They fought so hard to stop it that the CPR finally just gave up. And now with "climate change" anxiety growing among us, the future of Powder River coal looks bleak.
Fred M Cain Remember, a few years ago, The CPR planned to revive one of those lines to send their reach into the coal fields in Wyoming. I think maybe it was a shortline that started this (D&M maybe) then the CPR took over. There was a big fuss over it. The people of Rochester, MN raised hell over the possibility of coal trains rumbling through town. There was litigation filed to try and kill the plan. They fought so hard to stop it that the CPR finally just gave up. And now with "climate change" anxiety growing among us, the future of Powder River coal looks bleak.
Almost entirely not true.
There is pretty much no actual evidence that CP bought the DM&E to access the Powder River Basin. At the announcement in 2007, CP stated that any exploration of whether to build into the Powder River Basin "was at least a year off." By 2012, CP took a $180 million write-off on the all the associated costs (including those from the DM&E) associated with this "proposal."
Of course, the argument could be made that the Great Recession of 2008 harpooned any thoughts of expansion, but the general consensus is that CP acquired the DM&E and subsidiary Iowa, Chicago, and Eastern for the latter's routes, including line from River Jct. (La Crosse) and Chicago to Kansas City. Kansas City was not only the number 2 railroad location in the country, it also offered a direct connection to KCS. And the recent announcement of CP's desire to purchase KCS tends to verify such a long-term strategy.
The City of Rochester, Minnesota and the Mayo Clinic did fight the proposed expansion in the Powder River Basin, but Fred is dead wrong stating "they fought so hard to stop it that the CPR finally just gave up." The most-heated conflicts were between Mayo and the DM&E, but when the sale of the railroad to the CP was in the works, the Mayo Clinic changed its tune:
https://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/mayo-clinic-changes-opposition-on-railroad/article_94700482-6c01-5228-971a-c1ef0f7d4560.html
Hard to know the real reason for the change of position. Perhaps it was simply because CP would be a much more formidable opponent than a regional railroad. Or, could it be that whoever finally got through to Mayo that this project was never going to happen in the first place?
And therein lies Mayo's big mistake: Believing that the DM&E had a snowball's chance of getting this project off the ground. It never was to be, as BNSF and UP were well aware from the beginning, hence their largely silent stance on the issue over the years.
The plan was simply a fantasy by some at the DM&E, which trickled down to online communities and railfans eager for such thing. But everyone else knew that there was no economic reason for doing so. Even if D&ME could miraculously wrest a coal contract or two from BNSF or UP, it would hardly be enough to pay back a loan in the billions of dollars. Undercutting BNSF and UP would be a near impossibility in itself, but the main problem with the DM&E was that it had just one way in and one way out, making routing 90+% of coal shipments more circuitous than using UP or BNSF. That BNSF and UP had better routes for coal trains going to KCS at Kansas City than DM&E/IC&E would be one thing, but when one considers all the other places that BNSF and UP move coal which would be completely inaccessible to a DM&E routing (again, which is most of them), the DM&E plan could only be a fantasy. (At the time - around 2007 - BNSF's largest coal customers were in Georgia, Alabama, Texas, and British Columbia; try working a DM&E route into any of those destinations without a huge degree of circuity!)
As Murphy points out, the DM&E never got any financing for the project. After no one in the private sector would fall for it, DM&E petitioned the FRA that rejected the request because, basically, they didn't believe the DM&E could repay the loan:
https://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/article_3b38015d-54b9-55b7-a134-907895615772.html
And keep in mind that this was still before the Great Recession in 2008 and beyond and of course the current trends with coal demand. Indeed, a mind-boggling "what-if" there!!!!
chutton01 The RCPE is actually a fairly decent sized railroad (under G&W) spanning 3 states with a number of interchange connections.
Nitpick: RCP&E actually serves four states: Wyoming, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Minnesota. Wyoming, Nebraska, and Minnesota all have important trackage, but it's mostly a South Dakota show.
Mark,
Your comments regarding my post are somewhat miscontrued or unfair. You are correct that it was the DM&E trying to expand into Powder River. You see, my details were fuzzy on this subject 'cause I was partly going by memory. There were several Wall Street Journal articles about the fight but you are correct, it was the City of Rochester vs DM&E, not CPR.
Sorry about that, I should have gone back and reviewed that before I posted this. However, I do recall reading in the WSJ that after the CPR bought the DM&E, there was speculation that they would still continue with the Powder River Project. But that never came to pass so my statement that "CPR finally gave up" was not completly untrue. Just inaccurate.
You are a real stickler for details, Mark, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Thanks for the correction.
Murphy Siding The Dakota southern ends at Presho as Mark Meyer mentioned above. From there to Kadoka it's just an old, light weight, rusting, jointed-rail line in the weeds. Look at Google maps. As the line runs west from about the rapid City Regional airport into Rapid City, a lot of the ROW has been lost to highways, streets and buildings.
The Dakota southern ends at Presho as Mark Meyer mentioned above. From there to Kadoka it's just an old, light weight, rusting, jointed-rail line in the weeds. Look at Google maps. As the line runs west from about the rapid City Regional airport into Rapid City, a lot of the ROW has been lost to highways, streets and buildings.
You know, I just happened to reread the short news article in the most recent issue of TRAINS yesterday and the way that's worded, it does sound like they plan to reactivate the entire line from Kadoka to Rapid City. I am left wondering what the justification for that is. Did they get a big wad of "stimulus" transportation funds that they're not sure what to do with?
Or, more likely, was the TRAINS article either inaccurate or just plain wrong. If that were the case, then TRAINS should issue a correction in a future issue.
Murphy Siding As the line runs west from about the rapid City Regional airport into Rapid City, a lot of the ROW has been lost to highways, streets and buildings.
As the line runs west from about the rapid City Regional airport into Rapid City, a lot of the ROW has been lost to highways, streets and buildings.
I tried flying over the line on Google Earth between Murphy and R.C. and the rails are definetly gone. One Google Earth "Street View" showed the rails still intact but the image was probably out of date.
However, I was having trouble seeing where the right of way has been covered over with buildings and highways. It looks like the roadbed is still there although all grade crossings have been removed (along with the rails). I followed into the southeastern side of R.C. where it appeared to join another rail line with rails intact.
It's always hard for me to tell how old these satellite images are so you could very well be right and new buildings have indeed been built on the ROW. But the Official State Rail map indicates that it is still there and "rail banked".
Here's the map I was looking at if you haven't seen it. You really need to zoom in to read it:
https://dot.sd.gov/media/documents/railmap.pdf
The question comes up, why would they rebuild this line *IF* that's even what they intend to do? I can think of a number of lines I'd like to see rebuilt if the opportunity should ever arise. I'd put this one pretty far down near the bottom of my list.
Fred M Cain Mark, Your comments regarding my post are somewhat miscontrued or unfair. You are correct that it was the DM&E trying to expand into Powder River. You see, my details were fuzzy on this subject 'cause I was partly going by memory. There were several Wall Street Journal articles about the fight but you are correct, it was the City of Rochester vs DM&E, not CPR. Sorry about that, I should have gone back and reviewed that before I posted this. However, I do recall reading in the WSJ that after the CPR bought the DM&E, there was speculation that they would still continue with the Powder River Project. But that never came to pass so my statement that "CPR finally gave up" was not completly untrue. Just inaccurate. You are a real stickler for details, Mark, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Thanks for the correction.
Fred M Cain Murphy Siding As the line runs west from about the rapid City Regional airport into Rapid City, a lot of the ROW has been lost to highways, streets and buildings. Murphy, I tried flying over the line on Google Earth between Murphy and R.C. and the rails are definetly gone. One Google Earth "Street View" showed the rails still intact but the image was probably out of date. However, I was having trouble seeing where the right of way has been covered over with buildings and highways. It looks like the roadbed is still there although all grade crossings have been removed (along with the rails). I followed into the southeastern side of R.C. where it appeared to join another rail line with rails intact. It's always hard for me to tell how old these satellite images are so you could very well be right and new buildings have indeed been built on the ROW. But the Official State Rail map indicates that it is still there and "rail banked". Here's the map I was looking at if you haven't seen it. You really need to zoom in to read it: https://dot.sd.gov/media/documents/railmap.pdf The question comes up, why would they rebuild this line *IF* that's even what they intend to do? I can think of a number of lines I'd like to see rebuilt if the opportunity should ever arise. I'd put this one pretty far down near the bottom of my list.
I still can't make this out. It would appear to me that the new entrances to U.S. "Bypass" 16 were laid out at grade on what could be construed to be new grade crossings. I say "construed" because I reall don't know and it's a puzzle.
I have an idea. Why don't we try and contact the S.D. DOT and see what they're thinking? Like I posted earlier, the short news article in my latest issue of TRAINS stated that they intend to reinstate rail service from Mitchell to Rapid City. But that article could be flat wrong.
You stated that There really is not enough incentive to rebuild this line into Rapid City..That's a good point. So what are they thinking? My guess is that if we try and contact them we'd be lucky to get a response at all. And if we did get a response it would almost certainly be B.S. Something along the lines of "we are currently reviewing all the transportation options in western South Dakota including rail freight transportation in order to provide the best service possible to our residents in southwestern South Dakota" Or, words to that effect.
This immesely long URL will probably break up but nonetheless, here is the intersection I looked at. It shows nothing covered up. U.S. "Bypass" 16 passes over the ROW on an overpass and the entraces are at grade.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rapid+City,+SD/@44.0643849,-103.1611732,495m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x877d42a59ebba5fb:0xc471615a3e93b7c7!8m2!3d44.0805434!4d-103.2310149
If you continue to follow the line west-northwest from U.S. 16, you come to what looks like some kind of an industrial yard with structures. The structures don't appear to be permanent but it's hard to tell.
I just had a better idea. What about trying to contact TRAINS concerning the news brief. They would be far more likely to answer us than S.D. DOT
Fred M Cain Murphy, I still can't make this out. It would appear to me that the new entrances to U.S. "Bypass" 16 were laid out at grade on what could be construed to be new grade crossings. I say "construed" because I reall don't know and it's a puzzle. I have an idea. Why don't we try and contact the S.D. DOT and see what they're thinking? Like I posted earlier, the short news article in my latest issue of TRAINS stated that they intend to reinstate rail service from Mitchell to Rapid City. But that article could be flat wrong. You stated that There really is not enough incentive to rebuild this line into Rapid City..That's a good point. So what are they thinking? My guess is that if we try and contact them we'd be lucky to get a response at all. And if we did get a response it would almost certainly be B.S. Something along the lines of "we are currently reviewing all the transportation options in western South Dakota including rail freight transportation in order to provide the best service possible to our residents in southwestern South Dakota" Or, words to that effect. This immesely long URL will probably break up but nonetheless, here is the intersection I looked at. It shows nothing covered up. U.S. "Bypass" 16 passes over the ROW on an overpass and the entraces are at grade. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rapid+City,+SD/@44.0643849,-103.1611732,495m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x877d42a59ebba5fb:0xc471615a3e93b7c7!8m2!3d44.0805434!4d-103.2310149
Murphy Siding All that would be needed to make it work would be a whole bunch of free government money. If only.
All that would be needed to make it work would be a whole bunch of free government money. If only.
Ah, Murphy, you might very well be onto something here. Maybe they are hoping for a big infusion of money whether it comes from Joe Biden or whatever.
In other words, they might already be planning to spend money that they don't even have yet and might never get.
What are the RCPE crew districts? Is Rapid City a home terminal?
Last I saw in any report, RCPE is a Class I 10 mph railroad between Rapid City and Pierre.
It will typically take more than one crew to move a train between the two points which are about 165 miles apart.
The SD Legislature recently approved a $20 million grant to be matched by Federal funds and then again matched by Genesee & Wyoming to improve the track up to Class II 25 mph.
kgbw49 Last I saw in any report, RCPE is a Class I 10 mph railroad between Rapid City and Pierre. It will typically take more than one crew to move a train between the two points which are about 165 miles apart. The SD Legislature recently approved a $20 million grant to be matched by Federal funds and then again matched by Genesee & Wyoming to improve the track up to Class II 25 mph.
Unless this has changed recently, the 10 MPH portion is from MP 488 west of Fort Pierre to MP 609 west of Wasta, 121 miles, most of which is FRA excepted track.
Crews change at Philip.
A description of the work to be done with the grant money is here:
https://boardsandcommissions.sd.gov/bcuploads/Handout%20-%20RCP&E.pdf
The $20 million will come nowhere close to allow raising speeds and load limit on the entire section of 10 MPH track. It does indicate that installing welded rail will facilitate an increase of speed from 10 MPH to 25 MPH. This is interesting because part of the fantasy of the DM&E Powder River Basin expansion was completely rebuilding the railroad in this area. But then - like the plan to go into the Powder River Basin itself - maybe that was incorrect, too.
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