Erik_Mag VerMontanan Erik_Mag FWIW, a lot of the coal mined in Utah is currently being exported. Erik: What is the origin mine(s) and through what port(s) does it go for export? Mark, one mine in question is the Sufco mine about 20 miles east of Richfield. The coal is hauled by truck to a load out on the UP line south of Nephi. IIRC, the coal is shipped out of northern California. The Utah Rails website is the source of my information. FWIW, the first Colstrip sourced coal train I saw was in 1969, hauled by NP F-units. Wished I was able to get a picture of that.
VerMontanan Erik_Mag FWIW, a lot of the coal mined in Utah is currently being exported. Erik: What is the origin mine(s) and through what port(s) does it go for export?
Erik_Mag FWIW, a lot of the coal mined in Utah is currently being exported.
FWIW, a lot of the coal mined in Utah is currently being exported.
Erik: What is the origin mine(s) and through what port(s) does it go for export?
Mark, one mine in question is the Sufco mine about 20 miles east of Richfield. The coal is hauled by truck to a load out on the UP line south of Nephi. IIRC, the coal is shipped out of northern California. The Utah Rails website is the source of my information.
FWIW, the first Colstrip sourced coal train I saw was in 1969, hauled by NP F-units. Wished I was able to get a picture of that.
The coal is exported from the Levin Marine Terminal in Richmond, CA. One of the few deepwater ports on our West Coast that can handle these shipments. Alot of petcoke is also exported through here..
Erik_Mag MidlandMike My recollection is that PRB coal is low density, and it would take more shiploads of PRB coal for the same BTUs. Also, Australia coal is much closer to Asia. I'm not sure that PRB coal is less dense than higher quality coals, but it does have a lower BTU content per ton than higher quality coals. What may be worse is that PRB coal usually comes out of the ground being fairly wet and is prone to spontaneous combustion when it dries out. There are several roack formations in the PRB area where it shows overlying clay being burnt from a fire in the underlying coal. I had a couple of imprmptu tours of the mines adjacent to Colstrip in 1971 - the coal seams were impressive being about 30' thick.
MidlandMike My recollection is that PRB coal is low density, and it would take more shiploads of PRB coal for the same BTUs. Also, Australia coal is much closer to Asia.
My recollection is that PRB coal is low density, and it would take more shiploads of PRB coal for the same BTUs. Also, Australia coal is much closer to Asia.
I'm not sure that PRB coal is less dense than higher quality coals, but it does have a lower BTU content per ton than higher quality coals. What may be worse is that PRB coal usually comes out of the ground being fairly wet and is prone to spontaneous combustion when it dries out. There are several roack formations in the PRB area where it shows overlying clay being burnt from a fire in the underlying coal.
I had a couple of imprmptu tours of the mines adjacent to Colstrip in 1971 - the coal seams were impressive being about 30' thick.
Concerning Montana. It appears from surveys the best quality coal is in the Central area of Montana starting in the Roundup area. Taking a Westerly course then turning at the Rockies North up into Alberta, and ending in the corner of eastern British Columbia. A massive deposit to say the least of medium to high volatile bituminous coal seam stretching some 800+miles along the foothills of the Rockies.
VerMontanan SD70Dude Some export PRB trains were sent to Prince Rupert, BC during a period of sky high coal prices around 2013, but they didn't last. Thanks for the reminder. Had forgotten about this. Joint BNSF-CP-CN operation via Coutts/Sweet Grass and Edmonton. Some of the trains loaded near Price, Utah and went east to Denver before heading north. 2,870 miles or so - had to be the longest unit coal train haul in North America.
SD70Dude Some export PRB trains were sent to Prince Rupert, BC during a period of sky high coal prices around 2013, but they didn't last.
Some export PRB trains were sent to Prince Rupert, BC during a period of sky high coal prices around 2013, but they didn't last.
Thanks for the reminder. Had forgotten about this. Joint BNSF-CP-CN operation via Coutts/Sweet Grass and Edmonton. Some of the trains loaded near Price, Utah and went east to Denver before heading north. 2,870 miles or so - had to be the longest unit coal train haul in North America.
Their original BNSF-CN routing via Kamloops and Vancouver, BC was even longer. No idea why that route was tried first.
CP had a tough time getting the trains through Calgary as they do not have a straight north-south route, the trains had to see-saw around the double wye at the west end of Alyth Yard.
CP and BNSF power occasionally ran through to Prince Rupert, and I also recall seeing a couple photos of CN units on the Joint Line during this time.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD60MAC9500 Erik_Mag MidlandMike My recollection is that PRB coal is low density, and it would take more shiploads of PRB coal for the same BTUs. Also, Australia coal is much closer to Asia. I'm not sure that PRB coal is less dense than higher quality coals, but it does have a lower BTU content per ton than higher quality coals. What may be worse is that PRB coal usually comes out of the ground being fairly wet and is prone to spontaneous combustion when it dries out. There are several roack formations in the PRB area where it shows overlying clay being burnt from a fire in the underlying coal. I had a couple of imprmptu tours of the mines adjacent to Colstrip in 1971 - the coal seams were impressive being about 30' thick. Concerning Montana. It appears from surveys the best quality coal is in the Central area of Montana starting in the Roundup area. Taking a Westerly course then turning at the Rockies North up into Alberta, and ending in the corner of eastern British Columbia. A massive deposit to say the least of medium to high volatile bituminous coal seam stretching some 800+miles along the foothills of the Rockies.
The seams extend all the way up the Rockies at least as far as northeastern BC, and have been mined wherever they are relatively close to the surface and have rail access. Places like Tumbler Ridge, Grande Cache, the Alberta Coal Branch, Nordegg, Canmore, and the Crowsnest Pass region all come to mind on the Canadian side of the border.
Coal quality seems to increase as you get farther into the mountains, with the best being used for steelmaking, this stuff commands a far higher price than any thermal coal.
SD70Dude SD60MAC9500 Erik_Mag MidlandMike My recollection is that PRB coal is low density, and it would take more shiploads of PRB coal for the same BTUs. Also, Australia coal is much closer to Asia. I'm not sure that PRB coal is less dense than higher quality coals, but it does have a lower BTU content per ton than higher quality coals. What may be worse is that PRB coal usually comes out of the ground being fairly wet and is prone to spontaneous combustion when it dries out. There are several roack formations in the PRB area where it shows overlying clay being burnt from a fire in the underlying coal. I had a couple of imprmptu tours of the mines adjacent to Colstrip in 1971 - the coal seams were impressive being about 30' thick. Concerning Montana. It appears from surveys the best quality coal is in the Central area of Montana starting in the Roundup area. Taking a Westerly course then turning at the Rockies North up into Alberta, and ending in the corner of eastern British Columbia. A massive deposit to say the least of medium to high volatile bituminous coal seam stretching some 800+miles along the foothills of the Rockies. The seams extend all the way up the Rockies at least as far as northeastern BC, and have been mined wherever they are relatively close to the surface and have rail access. Places like Tumbler Ridge, Grande Cache, the Alberta Coal Branch, Nordegg, Canmore, and the Crowsnest Pass region all come to mind on the Canadian side of the border. Coal quality seems to increase as you get farther into the mountains, with the best being used for steelmaking, this stuff commands a far higher price than any thermal coal.
Thanks for the detail. Concerning Tumbler Ridge being a part of the seam you confirmed my suspicion. Check out this map I found from the North Dakota Geological Survey.
While it omits B.C. you can see it continues past the border of Alberta.
What's interesting about that map is the decent sized coalfield in Michigan. It had narrow seams and wasn't all that productive.
Backshop What's interesting about that map is the decent sized coalfield in Michigan. It had narrow seams and wasn't all that productive.
Here you go Backshop. The coal up here just became uneconomical to mine due to erratic depth and seam thickness.
http://miningartifacts.homestead.com/Michigan-coal-mines.html
Regarding those PRB exports through Prince Rupert, it was in mid-2011 that I saw them running through my area (N Idaho/eastern WA) with CN power front and rear, taking the insanely roundabout journey toward western Washington, then north through Vancouver, BC, and then northeast before turning north and west again toward Prince Rupert. In mid-2012 I happened upon a PRB load heading north through Great Falls, MT, with CP power front and rear. Here are a couple links to sites that charted the growth in PRB exports around that period:
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=8490
https://www.gem.wiki/U.S._coal_exports
Most of the Prince Rupert trains loaded in Southeast Montana or Wyoming, not Utah. IIRC, the big headache for CP was power. They didn't like being in the middle (dependent upon when BNSF and CN would deliver the train) and they sometimes weren't in the situation to allow their power to run through. In the whole scope of the major North American railroads, CP is very small, and they just don't have the locomotive assets compared to the others. BNSF was the logical partner to provide the locomotives, but most were not "Canadian Qualified" though we know from experience that not having one is not the end of the word if the situation is sufficiently dire. There was even talk of upgrading a pool of BNSF locomotives to be so equipped (like the UP power through to Lethbridge through Eastport/Kingsgate), but number and duration of these shipments were deemed either insufficient or uncertain to warrant the investment. CN, on the other hand, seemed pretty much open to letting their power go anywhere and everywhere.
Mark Meyer
I have asked this question, but what is "Canadian Qualified". It that standard still around?
Ed Burns
NP EddieI have asked this question, but what is "Canadian Qualified". It that standard still around?
I believe it means the cab has to have a refrigerator and microwave, possibly additional heating capacity (it gets cold up there, I hear). I'm sure there are other parts to it as well. I don't know if this means all units must be so equipped, or only the leader.
adkrr64 NP Eddie I have asked this question, but what is "Canadian Qualified". It that standard still around? I believe it means the cab has to have a refrigerator and microwave, possibly additional heating capacity (it gets cold up there, I hear). I'm sure there are other parts to it as well. I don't know if this means all units must be so equipped, or only the leader.
NP Eddie I have asked this question, but what is "Canadian Qualified". It that standard still around?
Before microwaves, and possibly even with, a hotplate was required equipment.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
adkrr64 I believe it means the cab has to have a refrigerator and microwave, possibly additional heating capacity (it gets cold up there, I hear). I'm sure there are other parts to it as well. I don't know if this means all units must be so equipped, or only the leader.
I can't remember all the specifics, but previous postings give the general idea: hotplate, a stretcher and some additional medical equipment, and the stewardess can't be too ugly. Stuff like that. Only applicable to the lead unit. Additional heating capacity, I doubt. But I always shook my head when I saw photos of CN and CP trains barreling across Saskatchewan in January with one locomotive on the head end, and on BNSF the edict came out requiring two heat sources (in case one failed) on the head end, regardless of the tonnage of the train.
VerMontanan...and on BNSF the edict came out requiring two heat sources (in case one failed) on the head end, regardless of the tonnage of the train.
Our former Canadian RS18u's have a blower heater in front of the engineer and behind the conductor, as well as strip heaters under the windows. I've never had problems staying warm in them.
I think a full first aid kit and stretcher are the only regulatory requirements up here, everything else is contractual.
CP's agreements require a working fridge and hot plate in the lead locomotive, CN's also require a microwave. On CN unfitted power is permitted to lead from the American border as far as the first shop facility (Vancouver, Winnipeg, Toronto or Montreal), where it must be fitted with or exchanged for a unit with the ammenities.
As modern locomotives have 110vAC outlets in the cab, it is not unheard of for a local supervisor to rush over to Canadian Tire or Walmart to hastily "equip" a unfitted locomotive with said ammenites.
Old Canadian power seems to have better cab insulation and more powerful blower heaters than American units, but our SD75I's and cowl Dash-8's were not built with strip heaters (the EMDs are being retrofitted, the GE's will probably get scrapped first), and are not popular leaders when it is -30 or colder.
The secondhand spartan cab Dash-8's and SD60's have strip heaters and those small awful Prime blower modules, same as Larry's MLW. I had a ex-CNW Dash-8 last week in temperatures approaching -40, even with all the heaters on full blast it got pretty cold in there when we were moving on account of all the cracks and holes around the windows and doors. But it was fine as long as we were stopped.
The ex-Santa Fe Dash-8's do not have strip heaters, and their blower heater is rather weak and cannot keep up in the Canadian winter (they do have heated windshields, unlike the spartan cabs). They should be restricted to trail-only status for this and several other reasons, but unfortunately continue to lead on occasion.
All our power since the second order of Dash-9's has come with strip heaters and good blowers. For GE's I usually find that both strip heaters on high and medium blower heat is enough to keep the cab comfortable, even when moving at -30. The SD70M-2's were delivered with weak strip heaters, though they are receiving the more powerful ones as they go in for PTC installation and other upgrades.
I'd prefer a travelling mechanic or electrician over a stewardess, though the hot plate can be used to cook up some surprisingly complex and tasty meals.
SD70Dude I think a full first aid kit and stretcher are the only regulatory requirements up here, everything else is contractual. CP's agreements require a working fridge and hot plate in the lead locomotive, CN's also require a microwave. On CN unfitted power is permitted to lead from the American border as far as the first shop facility (Vancouver, Winnipeg, Toronto or Montreal), where it must be fitted with or exchanged for a unit with the ammenities. As modern locomotives have 110vAC outlets in the cab, it is not unheard of for a local supervisor to rush over to Canadian Tire or Walmart to hastily "equip" a unfitted locomotive with said ammenites. Old Canadian power seems to have better cab insulation and more powerful blower heaters than American units, but our SD75I's and cowl Dash-8's were not built with strip heaters (the EMDs are being retrofitted, the GE's will probably get scrapped first), and are not popular leaders when it is -30 or colder. The secondhand spartan cab Dash-8's and SD60's have strip heaters and those small awful Prime blower modules, same as Larry's MLW. I had a ex-CNW Dash-8 last week in temperatures approaching -40, even with all the heaters on full blast it got pretty cold in there when we were moving on account of all the cracks and holes around the windows and doors. But it was fine as long as we were stopped. The ex-Santa Fe Dash-8's do not have strip heaters, and their blower heater is rather weak and cannot keep up in the Canadian winter (they do have heated windshields, unlike the spartan cabs). They should be restricted to trail-only status for this and several other reasons, but unfortunately continue to lead on occasion. All our power since the second order of Dash-9's has come with strip heaters and good blowers. For GE's I usually find that both strip heaters on high and medium blower heat is enough to keep the cab comfortable, even when moving at -30. The SD70M-2's were delivered with weak strip heaters, though they are receiving the more powerful ones as they go in for PTC installation and other upgrades. I'd prefer a travelling mechanic or electrician over a stewardess, though the hot plate can be used to cook up some surprisingly complex and tasty meals.
I'm surprised the C40-8M's, and SD75I's don't have better heating elements. You figured they would. How about the SD70I's? How are they faring in the winter?
SD60MAC9500 I'm surprised the C40-8M's, and SD75I's don't have better heating elements. You figured they would. How about the SD70I's? How are they faring in the winter?
The 70I's are identical to the 75I's in pretty much every way from an operator's standpoint, including the heaters.
If their heaters are working properly (not always due to their age) and are constantly on at full power they are livable in the winter, but their lack of strip heaters is very noticeable in a fleet where everything else has them.
I should also note that our shops have accumulated quite the hoard of portable space heaters over the last few years, this is the 'go to' solution when a cab heater fails.
While this is officially prohibited, the hot plate is sometimes used as an additional heat source, but one must be careful, they can melt themselves if left on for too long.
Going by PTC installations, I expect our Dash-9's and remaining 710-engined EMD power to be around for many years to come, while the Dash-8's will probably all be gone within the next few years.
Our F10 (rebuilt F3) had a heater fed by coolant. Once it got up to snuff, it wasn't bad, but the cab was leaky as all get out. The cab is still leaky, but they replaced the radiator/fan unit with an electric heater. Much nicer...
They like to run the F unit for the Polar Express trains as it's easier on fuel than the RS18u's.
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