Fred M CainAre you insinuating that it might be worth considering rebuilding some abandoned lines or am I misunderstanding that by a long shot?
If you are even remotely suggesting such blasphemy, you are starting to think dangerously a little bit like me. :)
But, in all seriousness, I am baffled about why the railroads look upon the St. Louis Gateway and somewhat unfavorable.
Now that we are in an age of enormous capital cost, wretched engineering execution, and endless "grassroots challenges" to effective new construction, I suspect any enhanced link via St. Louis lies squarely in the hands of "the men who manage money" -- a community that has proven notably hostile to proper railroading, both at various periods in recent history and, arguably, now.
They keep complaining and complaining about congestion in and around Chicago so it seems like St. Louis might be a way to bypass the mess at least as far as true transcontinental traffic is concerned.
Traffic - esp hot intermodal traffic - moving from the Northeast could be turned over to the You Pee's ex-MoPac line at St. Louis then routed over the former Golden State line west of KC to the Southwest.
The actual requirements have changed fairly dramatically from what I thought were design priorities even a few years ago -- Z-train speed is no longer particularly needed if guaranteed delivery is made effective (and that is one of the claims of true, rather than political or greed-driven, PSR). That makes slower or more weirdly convoluted routes 'practical' but with the criterion that track be easier and cheaper to inspect, maintain, or "service". Apply this to the ex-B&O alignment between the St. Louis river crossing and intersection with the Chicago line, looking at the cost involved in current TLS ... but compare it to the same work done on the Panhandle.
For CSX it appears that the best solution would be to really beef up their Cumberland-Greenwich, OH-Indianapolis route into a real speedway which might at least compensate for it being so circuitous. But first things first. They really need to address the Howard Street Tunnel in Baltimore.
That part of the connection that is shared with the Chicago direct line contains most of the real headache sections, and for operational purposes here I think we can ignore this in 'opportunity costing' a revival of a route to St. Louis. The catch is that container traffic other than the Baltimore area might have better routes, either to St. Louis or via some other MIssissippi gateway enhancement. And I don't think any growth of the Port of Baltimore will provide enough distinctive traffic via St. Louis that wouldn't already be 'serviceable' by making a diversion to the north.
The CSX route from Selkirk to St. Louis really isn't too bad, though
There will be some here who actually know the traffic history of the lines involved, or can comment, perhaps with direct experience, on why this traffic has apparently languished despite complaints of sometimes extreme delays the further west of Cleveland you get. Certainly there is adequate capacity between Selkirk and Cleveland for any conceivable traffic expansion via St. Louis; I have no direct experience of possible routing south to either Columbus or Cincinnati, although I have seen evidence of double-blocked consists crossing the river from the latter city into Kentucky. Again, the argument has to be made that if the St. Louis gateway were so dramatically better, we'd have seen it used more particularly during those times in recent history when 'paradigm shifts' in priority intermodal equipment (or availability of cheap older equipment after those paradigm shifts provided great new capex) made the 'natural' advantages more valuable. It is hard to fault the collective wisdom or actions of a great many of very bright and motivated people who made rail logistics part of their careers.
Overmod... I thought the Howard Tunnel project had gotten fairly well under way before the problems associated with the pandemic. EHH, as I recall, got in considerable trouble when he tried to shelve the project, and while of course I can't prove it, I suspect that a certain amount of the threat of 'strict scrutiny' and all that that implies was made, perhaps as a concerted effort on the part of several affected political representatives...
I thought the Howard Tunnel project had gotten fairly well under way before the problems associated with the pandemic. EHH, as I recall, got in considerable trouble when he tried to shelve the project, and while of course I can't prove it, I suspect that a certain amount of the threat of 'strict scrutiny' and all that that implies was made, perhaps as a concerted effort on the part of several affected political representatives...
I am not aware of any dirt being moved on the Howard Street Tunnel project as of yet. I believe all the political entities have signed off, however, I have not heard of the awarding of any contracts for the work.
As an aside, the B&O had control of the Chicago & Alton route from St.Louis to Chicago up until 1942 when it was sold to the GM&O.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD <SNIP> As an aside, the B&O had control of the Chicago & Alton route from St.Louis to Chicago up until 1942 when it was sold to the GM&O.
<SNIP>
Being from WV I have followed the abandonment of many lines. The PRR across the northern panhandle is gone like their line from Wellsburg to Wheeling. The B&O from Grafton to Charleston has been given to short lines with the southern part either abandoned or delirect. the Parkersburg to Clarksburg saw its last passenger train disappeared when Harley Staggers departed Washington. This train was called the Staggers Express and went from DC to Parkersburg. As mentioned if the original ROW was an easement it reverted to the adjacent land owner. Rail banking is a great idea but think of the bucket of worms to get the hikers and bikers off. I cannot think of one place where the banked ROW was unbanked. Elon Musk recently said that management needs to spend less time in the board room and more time on the factory floor. He does this and improved the bottom line after meeting with the blue collars. It was mentioned to run trains from Clarksburg to New Martinsville then south to Huntington. The line from Clarksburg to New Martinsville was laid out by a snake. Talk about very slow trains. I keep thinking to what Fred Farley (I think) said. If we were building the CP-UP today with all the current EPA reports and studies required we would still be waiting on the golden spike ceremony.
Connecticut revived the Old Saybrook - Hartford railbanked line for on-line feight-service I've been told. Ex NYNH&H - PC - Conrail, now one of the regionals, possibly Prov. & Worcester, need to check.
daveklepper Connecticut revived the Old Saybrook - Hartford railbanked line for on-line feight-service I've been told. Ex NYNH&H - PC - Conrail, now one of the regionals, possibly Prov. & Worcester, need to check.
Fred M Cain daveklepper Connecticut revived the Old Saybrook - Hartford railbanked line for on-line feight-service I've been told. Ex NYNH&H - PC - Conrail, now one of the regionals, possibly Prov. & Worcester, need to check. Dave, I'm thinking that the State may have revived a short part of the northern end of this line but like you I, too, need to check. The revival and rebuilding of the Old Saybrook - Middleton portion has been an on-again, off-again project for quite a number of years. Not sure where the plan stands now. I think this was the old New Haven "Valley Line" Regards, Fred M. Cain
Where does the Valley Railroad/Essex Steam Train fit in to this discussion?
MidlandMike Where does the Valley Railroad/Essex Steam Train fit in to this discussion?
Mike,
The current Valley Railroad only uses the southernmost few miles of the old line. They rehabbed and run from Old Saybrook north about ten miles if it's even that far. There have been plans for many, many year to rehab the line from the end of the Valley Railroad operation to Middletown but as far as I know this has never happened. If it ever does happen they will have the advantage that the rails are still there in spite of the fact that most of the ties rotted away many years ago.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
I am sure my parents and I rode part of this route when we took B&O to DC from St. Louis. I do remember names like Parkersburg, Clarksburg and of course, Harpers Ferry, remember the sun sparkling on the water as we crossed the bridge, then we went into Maryland as friend I had been talking to got off at Sulphur Springs. Very scenic ride and I think the train was called the Diplomat. I know they had a hostess aboard dressed like airlines used and she was also a nurse. Only other RR I have rode with these ladies was the original CZ on tour from CA, the Zephyrettes. IL RR Museum has a collection of Q cars and engine and last year we were there for a big weekend event with the Nebraska Zephyr running. A lady came around in blue uniform and I said a Zephyrette, I was the only one who knew what she was, her and conductor asked me a lot of questions. She had got the uniform from a former Zephyrette and would be telling her that she met someone who rode with them. I found out they also walked dogs for passengers at longer stops, I knew they made dinner reservations and took care of passengers' needs. First class riding on B&O even on Dad's pass. This was our first overnight longer trip
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