I suscribe to YouTube TV (instead of Cable) and have been watching the series "Mighty Trains" on the Smithsonian Channel. You can buy or rent the episode on Hector Rail if your interested via You Tube. Anyways understood that Swedens operation is probably subsidized that being the case and on the table I noticed several differences mostly in efficiency on the Swede side of the fence.......
Sweden Hector Rail:
Cuts and ships the full length log....up to say 20-30 feet and loads the logs parallel to the rail into the log cars. The saw contraption is on one tractor and cuts the tree or log in just a few seconds as well as strips off all the branches
Log carrying rail cars are new and all built to same standard.
New batch of new Electric Locomotives but on spur lines they use all Diesel so they have to change locos at the spur line (less efficient then E&LS).
Employ a high pressure rail head washer that cleans the rail head of falling leaves or bark from the cars that runs prior to the train, that makes the rails less slippery. The limit here is it is electric powered from overhead lines and so cannot operate on spur lines.
Core route track outside of spurs is in decent condition for 40-50 mph travel, looks like the spur lines are approx 10-15 mph less and require more sand usage for traction as there is no track washer.
1 man crew on locomotive and the locomotive comes with a switch remote pack worn by the locomotive engineer so the loco can be operated on the ground by the engineer remotely for switching.....this was cool to watch.
E&LS
Very hold and mostly home made timber cars logs cut so they fix crosswise on the car but have also seen them loaded lengthwise but in the case of lengthwise they are stil short lengths and none greater than 4 feet it seems.
Leased Locomotives, older models but they seem to have limited loco issues.
Fairly crappy track uneven in places resulting in what seems like a somewhat slower speed for the trains. The Cars rock a lot on the track and there are a lot of derailments.
No track cleaner or washer.
2-3 man crews on locomotive no remote packs that I can spot.
So the biggest question I have here is what determines the length of the logs? Is it the logger or the recieving pulp wood mill? In the case of Sweden they haul to one giant pulpwood mill. In the case of E&LS, my guess would be several mills are shipped to.
Second question is what is the profitability of this traffic? My guess in the case of E&LS the mills are in either Green Bay or Appleton so the haul of the timber is probably shorter than Sweden.
Third question is, why hasn't E&LS applied via state of Wisconsin or Michigan for funds to fix it track so the trains can run faster and smoother?
CMStPnPI suscribe to YouTube TV (instead of Cable) and have been watching the series "Mighty Trains" on the Smithsonian Channel. You can buy or rent the episode on Hector Rail if your interested via You Tube. Anyways understood that Swedens operation is probably subsidized that being the case and on the table I noticed several differences mostly in efficiency on the Swede side of the fence....... Sweden Hector Rail: Cuts and ships the full length log....up to say 20-30 feet and loads the logs parallel to the rail into the log cars. The saw contraption is on one tractor and cuts the tree or log in just a few seconds as well as strips off all the branches Log carrying rail cars are new and all built to same standard. New batch of new Electric Locomotives but on spur lines they use all Diesel so they have to change locos at the spur line (less efficient then E&LS). Employ a high pressure rail head washer that cleans the rail head of falling leaves or bark from the cars that runs prior to the train, that makes the rails less slippery. The limit here is it is electric powered from overhead lines and so cannot operate on spur lines. Core route track outside of spurs is in decent condition for 40-50 mph travel, looks like the spur lines are approx 10-15 mph less and require more sand usage for traction as there is no track washer. E&LS Very hold and mostly home made timber cars logs cut so they fix crosswise on the car but have also seen them loaded lengthwise but in the case of lengthwise they are stil short lengths and none greater than 4 feet it seems. Leased Locomotives, older models but they seem to have limited loco issues. Fairly crappy track uneven in places resulting in what seems like a somewhat slower speed for the trains. The Cars rock a lot on the track and there are a lot of derailments. No track cleaner or washer. So the biggest question I have here is what determines the length of the logs? Is it the logger or the recieving pulp wood mill? In the case of Sweden they haul to one giant pulpwood mill. In the case of E&LS, my guess would be several mills are shipped to. Second question is what is the profitability of this traffic? My guess in the case of E&LS the mills are in either Green Bay or Appleton so the haul of the timber is probably shorter than Sweden. Third question is, why hasn't E&LS applied via state of Wisconsin or Michigan for funds to fix it track so the trains can run faster and smoother?
What determines the size of the timber? What the party receiving the timber wants. Are they making lumber? Are they pulping the timber for paper making and other uses of cellulose.
Questions 2 & 3 ?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
As to question 1 - Balt hit the nail on the head. It could be that the Swedish operation is set up to handle the full sized logs, so that's what they do. If you look up "pulpwood car" on-line in the US, you'll usually find cars with the logs cut to be loaded crosswise. It's just the standard practice here.
The second question is a relative thing - what are the comparative costs with other available modes? That cost of transportation gets included into the final cost of the product, though, so the question is whether the end product can be made at a competitive price using rail.
Question 3 - does speed make a difference? We've often discussed here that it's not necessarily the speed of the transport, but the regularity. It doesn't matter how long it takes the cargo to reach its destination (within reason) as long as the mill always has logs available to process.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACDWhat determines the size of the timber? What the party receiving the timber wants. Are they making lumber? Are they pulping the timber for paper making and other uses of cellulose. Questions 2 & 3 ?
In both cases Sweden and U.S. they are not making lumber but are producing pulp for paper. I am curious if log length shipped is more efficient one way or another. The log diameter in Sweden on the trains is too restricted to use for lumber......same with what E&LS hauls.
One other item I would mention is the automation at the logging site in Sweden approx can load on railcar in about 15-20 min. Have no idea what it is in Upper Wisconsin or Michigan, never saw video on it. So appears in Sweden since a train is approx 20-30 cars, they can load a full train in 10-12 hours of onsite cutting.....thats if they only have one cutter machine......not sure if that is the case either or if they have more.
Find it a puzzle that US logs on train are only short. That way the longer logs that are used for peeler logs ( plywood ) and power poles will have to be carried on trailers.
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blue streak 1 Find it a puzzle that US logs on train are only short. That way the longer logs that are used for peeler logs ( plywood ) and power poles will have to be carried on trailers.
There is a mill that makes power poles located in Boonville, NY. Much of their product travels by truck, but some does go by rail. I don't know what their source is, but there are considerable forests nearby.
Viewers of the Deshler cams will occasionally see flats with poles loaded longitudinally.
I saw a video of CN in north Wisconsin where the pulpwood cars held the 8 foot pulp logs in several racks where the logs were parallel to the rails. This made it easy for the loader which was like a front end loader, but instead of a bucket, had clasps more like a fork lift.
MidlandMikeI saw a video of CN in north Wisconsin where the pulpwood cars held the 8 foot pulp logs in several racks where the logs were parallel to the rails. This made it easy for the loader which was like a front end loader, but instead of a bucket, had clasps more like a fork lift.
I read an article that CN was complaining to Michigan and Wisconsin that if it could not find enough traffic to keep the lines in the North of Wisconsin and UP open it would abandon them altogether (shake down for taxpayer money). I think as a result of that conversation Wisconsin offered to buy something like 14 new log carrying cars for CN to haul logs vs using the near scrap value cars they use now. I have not heard anything since or seen any pictures of new cars and wondered what happened to that proposal.
In my view, South of the Border at least, CN could do a much better job at Community Relations for starters. Specifically if it wants to build traffic. They come across as very negative in the press when they do issue a press release on various topics. CP and UP do a much better job. CP's cooperation and open mindedness on expansion of Amtrak service has been commendable. UP's steam program and charitable activities in the state likewise. Never see any of that from CN though.
I was in the UP 2 weeks ago. I saw 2 CN trains on the Trout Lake-L'Anse line. One with two locomotives at the US41 crossing in L'Anse and a local with a GP9R a few miles west of Seney. Neither had any pulpwood racks.
Both those lines (they used to be one line, but it's severed between Munising Jct and Negaunee) have paper mills at the ends of their lines. Also I remember pulpwood loading sidings, especially in the Seney stretch. I wonder what it says about their business?
I can't remember where I saw it - could have been in a CN Quarterly Financial report - but CN is apparently looking to sell or lease a lot of former Soo Line trackage in WI and Upper MI to a short line.
There are several light duty branches to Manitowoc, New London, Plymouth and the north end of the Valley Line and all the former Soo in the UP where the traffic density is relatively light.
The states may have to step in as they did with the lines operated by Wisconsin & Southern.
Making utility poles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7HckUilVA
Back in 1976 when I spent a summer and fall working on the far side of nowhere (Grand Portage MN), I observed that the trucks hauling pulpwood to the paper mills in Thunder Bay carried short logs loaded crosswise. The trucks were equipped with a claw device for loading and unloading so the short length made the logs easier to handle.
BaltACDMaking utility poles
One major casualty of the Ice Storm of '98 here was hundreds of older cedar poles, which tend to be brittle, I'm told.
Of note about the thousands of replacement poles were those that were treated green. Most of those have already been replaced as they tend to rot in the middle.
In past years, poles were treated by dipping the to-be-buried portion in creosote.
tree68 BaltACD Making utility poles One major casualty of the Ice Storm of '98 here was hundreds of older cedar poles, which tend to be brittle, I'm told. Of note about the thousands of replacement poles were those that were treated green. Most of those have already been replaced as they tend to rot in the middle. In past years, poles were treated by dipping the to-be-buried portion in creosote.
BaltACD Making utility poles
When I went racing at Palm Beach International Raceway in West Palm Beach, FL after the 2005 Hurricane season had raked the area and created thousands of 'Blue Tarp Roofs' I also viewed a number of billboards in the area that had been constructed by sinking 'utility poles' into the ground - normally 4 for each billboard - those poles were snapped off several above ground level - the wind force against the 'sail' created by the billboard simply overcame the utility poles ability to withstand the forces.
Further derailing this thread...
The problem here was the massive amount of ice load. There was a two inch "tube" of ice hanging below the wires in many places. The weight of the ice on just one wire would be over 1,600 pounds. One pole (usually at a bend) would give up and the adjacent poles would come down like dominoes.
The weight of the ice literally stretched power lines between poles so they nearly touched the ground.
Ma Nature can really wreak havoc...
CSSHEGEWISCH Back in 1976 when I spent a summer and fall working on the far side of nowhere (Grand Portage MN), I observed that the trucks hauling pulpwood to the paper mills in Thunder Bay carried short logs loaded crosswise. The trucks were equipped with a claw device for loading and unloading so the short length made the logs easier to handle.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=michigan+special+log+trucks&qpvt=michigan+special+log+trucks&form=IGRE&first=1&scenario=ImageBasicHover
They weren't that big when I was in the Arrowhead. They were three-axle trucks with a two-axle full trailer, all of them owner operated.
Backshop CSSHEGEWISCH Back in 1976 when I spent a summer and fall working on the far side of nowhere (Grand Portage MN), I observed that the trucks hauling pulpwood to the paper mills in Thunder Bay carried short logs loaded crosswise. The trucks were equipped with a claw device for loading and unloading so the short length made the logs easier to handle. Those trucks are all over the place in the UP. They are 6-axle trucks hauling 5 axle trailers. I believe they can gross 160K in Michigan. https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=michigan+special+log+trucks&qpvt=michigan+special+log+trucks&form=IGRE&first=1&scenario=ImageBasicHover
Those trucks are all over the place in the UP. They are 6-axle trucks hauling 5 axle trailers. I believe they can gross 160K in Michigan.
Don't know about logging truck drivers in the UP. My observations in Florida and Georgia rate them in the bottom one percent of truck drivers.
CSSHEGEWISCH They weren't that big when I was in the Arrowhead. They were three-axle trucks with a two-axle full trailer, all of them owner operated.
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