Sleeping cars, especialy for modelers

[daveklepper]

In my youth the most duplicated passenger car was the heavyweight 6-wheel truck Pullman 12-section, one drawing room car, usually Pullman green with gold lettering, but sometimes painted for a particular railroad, like tuscan red for the PRR and N&W. Lightweight era there was the 10 bedrooom six double bedroom, mostly by Pullman, but many by Budd and a few by ACF.

[Kozzie]

Dave, whilst your thinking about sleepers, one Budd S/Steel coach I have in SP colours is called a Slumber Coach and the windows look quite different.

The windows are smaller in size than the usual ones and there are two rows of them. The upper row is immediately above the lower one, but the windows don't line up vertically, they're off-set to each other....(I hope that makes sense)
Were these cars a special type of sleeping cars with smaller compartments??? [8)][:I]

Dave

[passengerfan]

The Slumbercoach you mention were all built by Budd beginning with the first two delivered to the CB&Q in October 1956 for the new Denver Zephyrs. Each train received a second Slumbercoach in December 1956 and one was a Chicago-Denver Car the other a Chicago - Colorado Springs Car. The Slumbercoach were owned by just three railroads the B&O, CB&Q, and NP. Others were leased to railroads B&O, MP, and NYC the latter road called theirs Sleeper Coaches. Those leased cars when returned to Budd were sold to the Northern Pacific who became the largest operator of these cars. The Slumbercoaches provided 24-single rooms smaller than Duplex Roomettes (staggered window heights) for 24 passengers and 8-Double rooms at the other end of the car for 16 passengers giving them a passenger count of 40. The ides of these cars was for passengers traveling coach to have a private room for just a small charge
over the coach fare. Passengers did not have to purchase first class tickets as required for Pullman cars. Each room provided a sink, toilet and controls for the air conditioning and heat. Besides the Denver Zephyr the cars were operated in the NP North Coast Limited and later the Mainstreeter. The B&O operated the ones they owned in the Columbian the leased ones were operated in the National Limited between Washington and St. Louis where along with the sole MP leased Slumbercoach they operated through to San Antonio on the Texas Eagle. The one MP and two B&O leased cars provided this service between Washington and San Antonio. All slumbercoaches remained in stainless steel and all were purchased by Amtrak. The four leased by NYC were assigned to the Twentieth Century Limited. The NYC had Budd rebuild ten 22-roomette sleeping cars to 16-Single room 10-Dopuble room sleepercoaches between August and September 1961. Theye were assigned to the Twentieth Century Limited, New England States, Wolverine, Cleveland Limited and Ohio State Limited. Having ridden Slumbercoaches on the CB&Q and NP I can say the rooms were small but surpringly comfortable and had all the amenities necessary to enjoy the trip.

[Kozzie]

Alan - that sure does answer my question. Thanks very much! The staggered window heights really had me guessing....so....is Walthers indulging in "poetic licence" by providing these cars in SP colours? Not that that would worry me too much, I'd still run it with the other SP Budd cars - makes for a bit of variety, especially when running the train at shows on the club's exhibition layout....

Dave

[Anonymous]

ONe quick question about the slumber coaches maybe someone can fill me in on. When did amtrak stop using them. I know viewliners are their main single level sleeper. And could anyone give me some info on the viewliner sleepers amtrak now uses.
Andrew

[M636C]

Dave,

Amtrak used slumbercoaches only in the East, I think and they were mainly used in the East on shorter distance routes, where the smaller compartmentswere more acceptable on the shorter routes with only one night's usage. I don't know for sure, but I don't think UP, SP or ATSF used any Slumbercoaches. The slumbercoach allowed passengers to travel at second class fares plus a berth fee, wheras roomettes required a first class fare, plus a higher berth fee. In Australia, the Commonwealth BRE, BRG and BRJ cars were equivalent to two berth cabin slumbercoaches. The Queensland MBL cars, with triple berths without full bedding were more like European "couchette" cars.

Peter

[passengerfan]

Initially Amtrak left the Slumbercoaches in the west on the Empire Builder, Denver Zephyr, and North Coast Hiawatha.
The cars were then assigned to the New York - Florida trains and it is believed one of these in a Silver Meteor consist was responsible for an enviromental lawsuit that resulted in earlier than antcipated retirement. There was no place on these cars to put waste retention tanks especially when talking about 32 toilets. Only the deluxe bedrooms in the viewliners have toilets so the holding tanks for them was never any problem the other economy bedrooms share a pair of toilets at the other end of the car. The Handicap room also has its own bathroom. The former NYC sleepercoach conversions were the first retired when they came due for hep conversion in the early 1980's the Slumbercoaches were retired after conversion to HEP a direct result of the above mentioned lawsuit brought by two Florida fisherman. I beleive they were retired in the late 1980's. It was rumored for awhile that Canada was interested in the retired slumbercoach but soon changed their mind due to enviromental questions (threat of lawsuits). As far as I know they are now either in museums or scrapped by now.

[oltmannd]

Slumbercoaches were the best bargain on Amtrak! It didn't cost an arm and a leg to get a bed for the night (just an arm!) I'd ridden in them several times. The uppers were better than the lowers. I always felt clostrophobic in the lowers. Worst time was when I had the end upper on the non-vestibule end on one on the Lake Shore. Rough ride!

[espeefoamer]

I agree with oltmannd. Irode Slumbercoaches whenever I could for the same reasons he mentioned.Kozzie, the SP never owned or operated Slumbercoaches, but one or two would have looked great in the consist of the Sunset[:)].

[Paul Milenkovic]

Is there some deal where each commode needs its own retention tank, that you can't feed multiple commodes into a single tank? Just because a person has a private toilet doesn't mean they, um, use it more, so by the logic that the Slumbercoach couldn't have a retention tank, an overnight coach car carrying 50 percent more passengers could not handle the load either.

By the retention tank logic, the 10 roomette 6 bedroom sleeper is also a relic of the past.

[M636C]

Although I made a trip on the Coast Starlight in 1974, my next visit to the USA was not until 1977. I travelled on the Empire Builder from Seattle to Chicago, and although the train had a lot of original and interesting cars, there were no slumbercoaches by that time, so I assume they had been reassigned East. My train had four SDP40Fs going back to EMD to surrender their components to F40PHRs, but in Spokane we passed a westbound Empire Builder with two F40PHs, one of the first uses of this type on a long haul train. I can't remember what was providing steam heat, but I took a time exposure, and It might indicate that.

Don, I assume by upper and lower, you are referring to the single rooms in those positions. Has anyone used a twin room, which would be the equivalent to the Australian cars I mentioned. I had such a lower berth right across Australia on the Indian Pacific. My companion was a civil engineer with the Norwegian Railways, and he slept for much of the journey. The Australian cars have irregularly shaped compartments (as do our roomettes) giving room to stand next to the berth at the wider end, but resulting in a "zig zag" corridor. The second class cars did have washbasins but not toilets in the compartments. Toilets and showers were provided at each end, and a second class car, 75' long, slept 32 in reasonable comfort. The equivalent First class (single) roomettes had a toilet in each compartment, and 18 roomettes were fitted in since only showers had to be provided. The two berth compartment cars called "Twinettes" in Australia, had a (fairly compact) enclosed shower and toilet for each compartment, and the usual side corridor. Again there were nine or ten compartments in a 75' car.

To address Paul's question, I think the complication of piping the large number of toilets to retention tanks, with the need for an appropriate drop in the pipe for it to work properly, is the key problem in getting retention tanks into sleeping cars. That certainly has been the problem in the Australian Navy's ships which need to meet similar requirements regarding retention tanks. Thanks to superelevated curves and steep grades, sleeping cars face the same problem as ships - that they are not always horizontal and the pipes must always convey the material in one direction only.

The Australian East Coast XPT trains addressed the problem by using one shared shower and toilet between compartments - not as convenient but simpler for the plumbing. Great Southern have introduced a smaller number of unit chemical toilets to meet this problem, but many first class compartments no longer have toilets, I understand. I don't know any detail about the current arrangements.

Now I am reminded of my 1974 trip, I realise no models are available of the SDP45 used only by SP (and still by Amtrak on my 1974 trip). That's a bit sad, they looked really good climbing North out of San Luis Obispo.

Peter

[passengerfan]

Correction re Slumbercoaches. Amtrak did not retire cars until 1990's not 1980's as i earlier stated.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

I agree with oltmannd. Irode Slumbercoaches whenever I could for the same reasons he mentioned.Kozzie, the SP never owned or operated Slumbercoaches, but one or two would have looked great in the consist of the Sunset[:)].

Dan, I reckon you're right, one or two would have looked great in a Sunset Limited consist. [;)] I think my HO S/steel Budd coaches with the red band just above the windows were used for the Sunset Limited...is that right?

Anyway, the slumbercoaches sure look good in the consist at HO scale...[:p] [:D]...heh heh...

Dave [:)]

[M636C]

Dave,

Silver with a red band above the windows was later used for all SP trains, including the "Daylights". Some steel cars were painted in this scheme, I think. I hope so, my Rivarossi (smooth side) set is in that scheme, although lettered for the "Golden State" (if I recall correctly). Two of my sleeping cars are 12 Duplex Room/5 Compartment cars, which I assumed were generic and never operated by SP. The compartment side has two level windows like slumbercoaches, but the compartments were wider, going across to a side corridor, rather than a centre corridor in the slumbercoaches. Last night I noticed that SP obtained two 12-5 cars from the Joint "City of San Francisco" train. These may have remained in UP yellow until withdrawn from service, but if they were repainted, silver with a red band is most likely. I feel much better about them. I must check the numbers to see if they are 9250 and 9251.

Peter

[Kozzie]

Talking about "Golden State" is that what are the words represented by the initials in "GS4" ?

Dave

[passengerfan]

Peter
The former Portsmouth Square and Telegraph Hill were renumbered SP 9250 and 9251. Both did wear the SP red band scheme but did not receive stainless steel sides just a paint job.

[M636C]

The Rivarossi models are just painted silver, with no pretence of stainless steel. I thought I'd leave out any reference to replacing fluting on Pullman Standard cars with flat stainless for the time being, since it isn't relevant to Dave's Budd cars.

The usual story about "GS" is that it stood for "Golden State" until about 1942 when a statement was made to the US Government that it really stood for "General Service" in order to expedite the production of the GS-6 (which had smaller wheels, anyway, than the GS-3, GS-4 and GS-5).

The only suitable locomotive for my "Golden State" is a black painted GS-4, which is probably an anachronism, but since many of the cars are just repainted "Broadway Limited" cars, you can't be too fussy.

I am very pleased that there was a prototype for the 12-5s however!

Peter