Don't know exactly where to ask this...

[kevgos]

...So I guess I'll ask here and let the mods move it if necessary.

Anywho...

In the aviation world, flights are named by the airline operating it (e.g. Lufthansa 431) and where it operates (O'Hare to Frankfurt). How are trains named????? (Going back a few years, CP 912 ran from Sault Ste. Marie to Sudbury) I guess I'm wondering whether railroads have "codenames" like certain airlines (to ATC, it isn't AirTran 12, it's Citrus 12) or if it's simply the railroad name and number. It also seems to me that "The Canadian" (currently the "Canadian") is referred to as being such (not CP 1) if I remember correctly? Extras get whatever number is on the lead loco? (Extra 4457)

Hope that makes sense; if not, hope you can make it make sense to me! Thanks!

[tree68]

CSX currently uses a number fronted with a letter (A123). The letter indicates they type of train, the hundreds value a subset of that type, and the last two numbers are just assigned - no real rhyme or reason that I'm aware of. They also append the calendar day on the end (A123-12).

I think NS just uses a three digit number, and I don't know of what significance they are.

What I know of the western roads is what I've read. I think both US roads use a symbolsymbol (for the place of origin/destination) set-up, with additional designators for type of train, etc. F'rinstance CHILAC would be a train from Chicago to Los Angeles.

Some roads use even more cryptic designations (ie, MF-1 for the train from Mother to Father - the return trim would be FM-1) or perhaps a "plain language" name - the Bigtown turn.

I think someone recently asked what some of the source & destination codes were - but there are hundreds...

[BaltACD]

Each railroad has it's own train naming conventions and for the most part the naming conventions have become a level of 'accounting code' within the railroads computer systems. Some railroads such as CSX use a primarily numeric naming system. Others such has UP use a primarily alphabetic naming system.

A brief explanation of the CSX system

Q - this is the primary first letter of all merchandise (non bulk commodity) trains.
R- First Letter of a 'rerouted' merchandise train
L- First letter of a alternate schedule of a mechchandise train
A - B - C - D - F - H -J - M - O - First Letter of Divisional Locals and Road Switchers
E - First Letter of empty coal hopper train
G - First Letter of Unit Grain trains - loads and empties
K - First Letter of Bulk commodity trains that are not coal or grain (Ore, Coke, Trash etc.)
N - T - U - V - First Letter of Coal trains - there are priority differences between the letters
P - Passenger Trains
W - Work Trains
X - Extra trains of many varieties
Y - Yard jobs
Z - Foreign Line trackage rights trains

For Merchandise Freight trains the first digit inticated the following:
1 - Intermodal
2 - Automotive
3 - East-West General merchandise
4 - North-South General Merchandise
5 - General Merchandise that is not E-W or N-S, ie NE - SW
6 - General Merchandise not otherwise defined
7 - is reserved for Regular Divisonal locals and Road Switchers
8 - is not used in merchandise trains
9 - is used with Extra Divisional locals and Road Switchers
The next two digits are just numbers and do not have any specific significace by them selves.
The final part of the train ID is the date of origin.

Q173-13 - Regular Intermodal Train that originated on the 13th of the month.
L173-13 - Alternative scheduled Intermodal train that originated on the 13th of the month.
R173-13 - Rereouted Intermodal train that originated on the 13th.

The combinations are nearly endless.

[kevgos]

Thanks for the replies! There doesn't seem to be much standard along the lines of naming, so I will be able to just make up something as I go along without feeling as guilty about it!

[Anonymous]

The BNSF is similar but different.

Sample non coal train:

Z ALTLAC1 20

First letter is the train type code letters A through Z"

A=Amtrak trains on BNSF track
B=Bare table (intermodal with no containers)
C=Loaded coal train
D=light engine
E=empty coal
F=foreign train on bnsf track
G=loaded grain
H=hi priority merchandise
I=deadhead crew move
J=High/wide special
K=helpers
L=locals
M=regular merchandise
N=relief crew
O=officers special
P=premium service intermodal
Q=Guaranteed service intermodal
R=road switcher
S=Container stack intermodal
T=transferservice
U=unit train other than coals or grain
V=vehicle train
W=work train
X=empty grain
Y=yard
Z=Priority UPS

The 2nd through 4th letters are the departing station initials, sometimes intuitive but not always. In this case ALT is Alliance, Tx

The letters 5-7 are the arrival station, in this case LosAngeles, Ca

The station abbreviations can be found at : http://www.bnsf.com/business/html/station_list.html

The number after the stations is the section number (1-9). Which can stand for several different types of trains depending on what type of train is involved (the first letter) such as a grain train whose section number is 6 means "Beans" or 8 means "Corn". You get the drift, it's not that important to railfans.

The last two numbers is the day of the month the train departed.

So our sample would mean a High priority UPS train, from Alliance, Tx to LA, Ca. 1St section, departed on the 20th of the month

For Coal trains the stations are the coal mine and the utility plant and the last three numbers would mean the train number count for the year.

[joho2486]

Wow, the CSX system is really mind-boggling to memorize. However, in reference to the BNSF system, I used to remember that the number 9 in the train identification identified the train with UPS, not just strictly the letter Z. Sure, Z-trains carry the UPS traffic, but it carries other traffic as well and sometimes doesn't have the nine in it. If that has changed, please let me know. As for the UP, it has five letter train ID's, at least how I have looked at them, with the first letter identifying the train type (M for manifest (boxcar/merchandise), Z for high priority intermodal), the next two identifying the originating point of the train and the last two identifying the destination of the train. Some code letters include WC for West Colton Yard, the main classification yard in the LA area, FW for Fort Worth, Texas (Centennial Yard), NPP (note the three letters) stands for North Platte, Nebraska (Bailey Yard, largest classification yard in the world), and a whole slew of others included in its network.

[dehusman]

Actually North Platte is just NP. NPP is NP plus a suffix that indicates something different about the train, for example the 2nd P in NPP stands for perishable (as in fruits and vegetables).

[jchnhtfd]

Kevgos -- looks like this is one area where the airlines have it over the trains for romance, at least sometimes!

That is some of them do (some don't!). My favourite of all time, though, was Speedbird 1 and Speedbird 2... the British Airways Concordes eastbound and westbound, respectively.

[dwil89]

Actually, NS uses three numbers for Coal Movements, and some other movements, such as Road Railers, and 2 numbers, followed by a letter for General Maifests and Intermodal....it also assigns numbers for Amtraks moving on its trackage. 04T, 07T, 06T for example... On the Penn Route, which is the East-West Route across Pennsylvania, three digit numbered NS Trains would primarily be for empty hopper trains, or loaded drags. Most of these are in the 500 series, though there are some 600 series and 800 series Coal and hopper trains. There are also some trains in the 900 series to designate loaded or empty ballast trains. On the Penn Route, Westbound hopper trains generally end in an odd number, such as 537. Eastbounds would be even, such as 538. General Manifests would be numbered like a 11G, 17G, 11A, etc..for Westbounds, again the number is odd for WB and even for Eastbounds...12G, 14G, etc....Stacktrains, Trailer trains, are mostly the same system, odd for West, even for East....25K, 21M, 22W, 25K are a few symbols for Stack and Trailer trains through there. Unfortunately, nothing in the symbol would otherwise immediately identify the origin and destination, aside from even and odd numbering disclosing the direction of travel. There are charts available to the railfan converting these symbols to actual cities of origin and destination. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[dwil89]

Conrail had a 'railfan friendly' symboling system for its general manifests...It used the Alpha System....ALPI for example, was General Manifest Allentown to Pittsburgh. PIAL would be its Eastbound counterpart. Trailer trains would usually have a TV symbol, such as TV2M. Mailtrains would be symboled such as Mail-9. Autoracks would be symboled ML, for multilevel...ML440 for example. Locals had their own symbols such as WHCO-.... Conrail had a nice sstem, in my opinion, I'm surprised more Railroads haven't adopted such a system, unless it is less computer friendly. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[cpbloom]

Conrail did have "railfan friendly" symbols but I think SantaFe did too. I understood 9-199, H-FRSR and Q-NYLA (which became TVLA on Conrail). It got slightly confusing after the BN merger when they added the extra letters and did they keep the numbered trains (9-199)?

[dwil89]

Here is a link to a NS Train schedule at Gallitzin, Pa. which is 6 miles West of Horseshoe Curve, at the Gallitzin Tunnels. http://www.railfanreading.com/altoonaschedule.htm It shows current NS symbols through Gallitzin, what they were symboled in Conrail days, and their destinations and origins. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

How does one know what train number you are looking at? They never seem to use them on the radio here (Minnesota). Is there a list of current train numbers for each railroad posted somewhere??

Rick

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Jamie: As you know, railroad schedule symbols and airline schedule symbols could never be quite the same thing, as the airplane is a discreet entity while the train is a collection of things that changes from day to day.

Railroads used to have romantic train symbols, but they faded away by the early 1980s. Back in the day, UP had the Van (VAN) and the Super Van (SUPRV), the Overland Mail West (OMW) and the California Livestock Special (CLS). Rio Grande had the Utah Express (UTE), the SPF (Southern Pacific Forwarder), and the Red Ball Express (RBX). Western Pacific had the Golden Gate Merchandise (GGM) and Bay Area Forwarder (BAF). Those were all colorful, full of romance, history, and importance. Heck, I'd even take SP's sensible alpha system or Santa Fe's number system over what we have today. UP's alpha system is ostensibly the same as SP's but because it puts the type of train before the origin-destination pair, it won't flow off the tongue, but is as cold as the columns of a spreadsheet. Wouldn't you prefer "Hinkle to North Platte Perishables" over "Perishables, Hinkle to North Platte"? The former sounds like a train; the latter could be nothing more than a crate!

And with the addition of all the modifying numbers, the symbols today have become hopelessly unpronounceable. There was a time I could put a symbol into a sentence when I wrote an article, but I can't do that today without ruining readability.

The current symbols were adopted early in 1997 shortly after the SP merger was consummated. Some of the pronounceable names I remember prior to the SP style symbols include the NPNAP (Nip-Nap) and the OBAGR (Oh-Bagger). After the SP style symbols came online, the SENPV became the ASENP, the SEMEZ became the ZSEME, the YRHK became the MYRHK (very briefly), the PCSB became the MPCSB, etc & ad nauseam. I had a hard time at first remembering to add an M to the manifest train symbols when working on the mainframe; "What do you mean there is no PCSB and PCNPP?!" :) I made up a little cheat sheet after a couple of days and stuck it to the bulletin board next to my desk. I was pleasantly surprised to see it was right where I left it in Feb of 2003.

[dehusman]

The MP/UP system has had several variations on symbols. Originally it was just on or two letter O-D pairs and the origin date (e.g. LV-02 Little rock to Vanderbilt, tx) with only premium trains having a suffix and bulk trains having a prefix (e.g. CHZ and GWTHO) After the UP merger it went to 2 character station codes for the OD pairs. There always was a section code prefix provided for (2LV-02). Also after the UP merger they started adding more prefixes and suffixes for train type.
Non-bulk trains also may get a suffix for additional trains on the same OD pair on the same day (AASKS, AASKSB) or a numeric indicator to designate a changed/rerouted/detoured schedule.
The SP system required a section code whether or not there was a section, so a formal SP train might be 1-MRVLA-04. One of the computer gyrations after the merger was that symbols passed to the SP system had to have a section number added.
After the CNW merger grain trains picked up an additional prefix to denote type of service (Shuttle-S, Dedicated-D, standard-L,E, Cycle-C). Over the years coal trains have picked up additional suffixes to denote various things such as heavy haul cars, extra length trains and 1500 mile inspection trains.

Dave H.

[MP173]

IT is always a challenge to find the symbol designations in my area. Here, the CN, NS, and CSX all use number based symbols.

The CSX symbols are very easily located on bullsheet.com website, which even breaks down the schdules into intermediate points. Dont know how they do it, but it is great.

The NS information is kinda tough to get. Their designations is sort of a blend of the old NS three digit numeral and a three digit numeral/alpha code as described above. When they took over Conrail, they quickly ran out of numbers, so they took the first two digits and added a letter. For instance 13N runs from Deleware to the IHB mixing yard (I think) and it is a evolution of the 13_ series with a letter N in place of a number. I do not think there is any logic to the number system other than 100's refer to manifests, 200 are intermodal, Triple Crown, and auto, 300 are manifests, and 400's seem to be intradivisional manifests. The larger numbers 500, etc. are coal, grain, etc.

If anyone can provide more info on this....I will be forever indebted.

CN's use a similar system to NS with 100's being intermodal, 200's are auto, 300's are long running manifests (probably interdivisional....390 is a Chicago to Toronto), 400's seem to be intradivisional (448-449 are Chicago -Detroiters), and the coal trains are 700's).

It would be nice if we could collect a little database or clearinghouse of such info. In today's world, railroads are understandably much more secure in divulging information about their trains.

I far more enjoy watching a train go by and observing the traffic on the train (boxcars, flats, gondola's etc) and trying to determine the traffic flows. I believe someone referred to this earlier as a business fan, rather than railfan.

ed

[eolafan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by EFCO

The BNSF is similar but different.

Sample non coal train:

Z ALTLAC1 20

First letter is the train type code letters A through Z"

A=Amtrak trains on BNSF track
B=Bare table (intermodal with no containers)
C=Loaded coal train
D=light engine
E=empty coal
F=foreign train on bnsf track
G=loaded grain
H=hi priority merchandise
I=deadhead crew move
J=High/wide special
K=helpers
L=locals
M=regular merchandise
N=relief crew
O=officers special
P=premium service intermodal
Q=Guaranteed service intermodal
R=road switcher
S=Container stack intermodal
T=transferservice
U=unit train other than coals or grain
V=vehicle train
W=work train
X=empty grain
Y=yard
Z=Priority UPS

The 2nd through 4th letters are the departing station initials, sometimes intuitive but not always. In this case ALT is Alliance, Tx

The letters 5-7 are the arrival station, in this case LosAngeles, Ca

The station abbreviations can be found at : http://www.bnsf.com/business/html/station_list.html

The number after the stations is the section number (1-9). Which can stand for several different types of trains depending on what type of train is involved (the first letter) such as a grain train whose section number is 6 means "Beans" or 8 means "Corn". You get the drift, it's not that important to railfans.

The last two numbers is the day of the month the train departed.

So our sample would mean a High priority UPS train, from Alliance, Tx to LA, Ca. 1St section, departed on the 20th of the month

For Coal trains the stations are the coal mine and the utility plant and the last three numbers would mean the train number count for the year.

Having read your post, can you tell me why BNSF also uses train "names" like BRCGAL, which is Belt Railway Chicago (to) GALesburg. This train (and its counterpart GALBRC come through my home town of Aurora every single day. As an aside, some of crews use the nickname 'Brickgal" for the westbound BRCGAL train, but seem to have no nickname for the westbound GALBRC.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rwargofamily

How does one know what train number you are looking at? They never seem to use them on the radio here (Minnesota). Is there a list of current train numbers for each railroad posted somewhere??

Rick

On CSX the radio rules dictate that Dispatchers will call and respond to trains by their train designation.. 'AU Dispatcher calling Q173-22, Over' This applies system wide.

In Direct Traffic Control territory (DTC), while train designations are used when DTC Block authority is given, the block information must designate the lead engine number.

[BaltACD]

Back in the days before CSX, Chessie System utilized train NAMES, for the most part. There were trains such as: The Manhattan, The St. Lousian, The Baltimore Trailer Jet, The Detroit Steel Speci, The Dixie and several hundered other.

The confusing part of this system was there was no 'origin date' qualification as, as will sometimes happen in rail transportation you could have multiple St.Louisians operating on the same territory on the same day. The train names had no function in the operation of the trains in accordance with the rules as the Timetable & Train Order operations rquired the trains to be refered to by Timetable authorized schedule number (which could apply to multipe Named trains over time as timetable schedule numbers had published departure and arrival times - 12 hours after which the schedule lost its authority) or the trains were given Train Order authority as an Extra.

The train names were more of a Marketing Tool, rather than an operating tool.

[MP173]

Those freight train names were great, but like other aspects of railroading in the past, such as LCL, 1500 page Official Guides, manned towers every 10 miles or junction points, and E units, they have evolved.

My favorite name was the Blue Streak Merchandise. If anyone is interested in the evolution of a freight train, read Fred Frailey's excellent book on the BSM.

ed

[mvlandsw]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

Each railroad has it's own train naming conventions and for the most part the naming conventions have become a level of 'accounting code' within the railroads computer systems. Some railroads such as CSX use a primarily numeric naming system. Others such has UP use a primarily alphabetic naming system.

A brief explanation of the CSX system

Q - this is the primary first letter of all merchandise (non bulk commodity) trains.
R- First Letter of a 'rerouted' merchandise train
L- First letter of a alternate schedule of a mechchandise train
A - B - C - D - F - H -J - M - O - First Letter of Divisional Locals and Road Switchers
E - First Letter of empty coal hopper train
G - First Letter of Unit Grain trains - loads and empties
K - First Letter of Bulk commodity trains that are not coal or grain (Ore, Coke, Trash etc.)
N - T - U - V - First Letter of Coal trains - there are priority differences between the letters
P - Passenger Trains
W - Work Trains
X - Extra trains of many varieties
Y - Yard jobs
Z - Foreign Line trackage rights trains

For Merchandise Freight trains the first digit inticated the following:
1 - Intermodal
2 - Automotive
3 - East-West General merchandise
4 - North-South General Merchandise
5 - General Merchandise that is not E-W or N-S, ie NE - SW
6 - General Merchandise not otherwise defined
7 - is reserved for Regular Divisonal locals and Road Switchers
8 - is not used in merchandise trains
9 - is used with Extra Divisional locals and Road Switchers
The next two digits are just numbers and do not have any specific significace by them selves.
The final part of the train ID is the date of origin.

Q173-13 - Regular Intermodal Train that originated on the 13th of the month.
L173-13 - Alternative scheduled Intermodal train that originated on the 13th of the month.
R173-13 - Rereouted Intermodal train that originated on the 13th.

The combinations are nearly endless.

CSX does not use a dash between the train number and the date.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

The MP/UP system has had several variations on symbols. Originally it was just on or two letter O-D pairs and the origin date (e.g. LV-02 Little rock to Vanderbilt, tx) with only premium trains having a suffix and bulk trains having a prefix (e.g. CHZ and GWTHO) After the UP merger it went to 2 character station codes for the OD pairs. There always was a section code prefix provided for (2LV-02). Also after the UP merger they started adding more prefixes and suffixes for train type.
Non-bulk trains also may get a suffix for additional trains on the same OD pair on the same day (AASKS, AASKSB) or a numeric indicator to designate a changed/rerouted/detoured schedule.
The SP system required a section code whether or not there was a section, so a formal SP train might be 1-MRVLA-04. One of the computer gyrations after the merger was that symbols passed to the SP system had to have a section number added.
After the CNW merger grain trains picked up an additional prefix to denote type of service (Shuttle-S, Dedicated-D, standard-L,E, Cycle-C). Over the years coal trains have picked up additional suffixes to denote various things such as heavy haul cars, extra length trains and 1500 mile inspection trains.

Dave H.

In the Southern Pacific timetable I have, the references (very few) to a specific train list the train type after the destination. This is also true of all of the articles I have read where they reference SP trains. One train they listed is the loaded oil cans, Bakersfield to Dolores Unit (BKDOL). Shouldn't the example you gave be the 1-RVLAM-04? Must be a pre-West Colton train.