wasd MidlandMike If Ontario buying the line would save it, than I would hope that happens. The thing that worries me is that the Provence has a history of trying to sell off the Ontario Northland. What happened to BC Rail is fresh in my mind. I think we are past the point of any chance that ONR would be sold off. Since the discontinuance of the Northlander, its fortunes have really turned around and on top of being a successful railroad, it is also providing significant bus service to remote communities. I think the question right now is what form of deal the government will take with HCRY. I think if we are going to fund it, it would be better to see it under public ownership with ONR. Better than to take another risk with G&W 10 years down the line.
MidlandMike If Ontario buying the line would save it, than I would hope that happens. The thing that worries me is that the Provence has a history of trying to sell off the Ontario Northland. What happened to BC Rail is fresh in my mind.
I think we are past the point of any chance that ONR would be sold off. Since the discontinuance of the Northlander, its fortunes have really turned around and on top of being a successful railroad, it is also providing significant bus service to remote communities.
I think the question right now is what form of deal the government will take with HCRY. I think if we are going to fund it, it would be better to see it under public ownership with ONR. Better than to take another risk with G&W 10 years down the line.
Well said.
It's a shame that Ontario didn't use ONR to purchase the eastern half of the Ottawa Valley route before it was torn up a few years ago.
Of course, the current Ontario government could decide that freight rail subsidies are a waste of money.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Many of the articles I've read about the Huron Central, some old-some recent, said the HC operated the tracks leased from the CP. Does the CP still own the tracks?
One article said the CP held some trackage rights, making me think they might be 'cherry picking' some business. If that is still the case, maybe having CP relinqish their rights might raise the number of car loads the HC can account for. I believe it was one of the older articles and the number of yearly car loads it stated at the HC's start was slightly over the 100 load per mile threshold.
Jeff
Sounds similar to the arrangement IC used when they spun off the Iowa line to Chicago Central and the Alton Main to Chicago, Missouri & Western. IC retained the terminal trackage in the Chicago and St. Louis areas, keeping the good traffic sources.
SD70Dude It's a shame that Ontario didn't use ONR to purchase the eastern half of the Ottawa Valley route before it was torn up a few years ago.
There's basically nothing on that line though. It was just a bypass for Montreal-bound through freights. Once CP decided to route their Montreal container trains through Toronto (longer transit distance but no longer require maintenance on a secondary route) there was no longer any reason to keep the majority of it.
There was the Canadian Forces base at Petawawa, but it could have been maintained via a spur/shortline from the Ottawa Valley if the army really wanted to maintain it. The rest of the Chalk River line had no reason to exist anymore as a through route.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
cv_acrThere's basically nothing on that line though. It was just a bypass for Montreal-bound through freights. Once CP decided to route their Montreal container trains through Toronto (longer transit distance but no longer require maintenance on a secondary route) there was no longer any reason to keep the majority of it.
The line was located in Ontario, but it would mainly benefit Quebec, and it would have kept Ottawa on a thru line. Maybe it would have needed to be a federal priority to have been saved.
MidlandMike cv_acr There's basically nothing on that line though. It was just a bypass for Montreal-bound through freights. Once CP decided to route their Montreal container trains through Toronto (longer transit distance but no longer require maintenance on a secondary route) there was no longer any reason to keep the majority of it. The line was located in Ontario, but it would mainly benefit Quebec, and it would have kept Ottawa on a thru line. Maybe it would have needed to be a federal priority to have been saved.
cv_acr There's basically nothing on that line though. It was just a bypass for Montreal-bound through freights. Once CP decided to route their Montreal container trains through Toronto (longer transit distance but no longer require maintenance on a secondary route) there was no longer any reason to keep the majority of it.
Ironic that 'back in the day' carriers would actually build line simply to have a line that did not have any on line industry so that 'through' trains could actually be able to operate more than a few miles without being delayed by another job working on line industries.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
jeffhergert Many of the articles I've read about the Huron Central, some old-some recent, said the HC operated the tracks leased from the CP. Does the CP still own the tracks? One article said the CP held some trackage rights, making me think they might be 'cherry picking' some business. If that is still the case, maybe having CP relinqish their rights might raise the number of car loads the HC can account for.
https://www.elliotlaketoday.com/local-news/sudbury-competitor-looks-to-take-over-sault-to-sudbury-rail-line-as-current-operator-threatens-pullout-2754414
A bit of an update come out today. Diesel Electric Services of Sudbury is looking to take over the line in partnership with Ontario Northland with a possibility of passenger services. The Ontario Government doesn't want to give any more money to G&W. The Minister of Northern Ontario Development and Mines and the Premier visited Diesel Electric Services. They have been approached by the government in the past to gauge their interest in taking over the line. Hoping this works out. Diesel Electric Services did not have kind words for G&W.
cv_acr SD70Dude It's a shame that Ontario didn't use ONR to purchase the eastern half of the Ottawa Valley route before it was torn up a few years ago. There's basically nothing on that line though. It was just a bypass for Montreal-bound through freights. Once CP decided to route their Montreal container trains through Toronto (longer transit distance but no longer require maintenance on a secondary route) there was no longer any reason to keep the majority of it. There was the Canadian Forces base at Petawawa, but it could have been maintained via a spur/shortline from the Ottawa Valley if the army really wanted to maintain it. The rest of the Chalk River line had no reason to exist anymore as a through route.
You're right, and you might remember that I said basically the same thing in one of ttrraaffiicc's threads about the Ottawa Valley earlier this year.
But I still think it's a shame that our Provincial and Federal governments failed to step in where private enterprise failed in this case.
Hopefully something can be arranged for the Huron Central line.
It's possible that Sault Ste. Marie will lost 2/3 of its rail connections very shortly. At this point, the Sault-Sudbury rail link is unlikely to survive beyond December, at which point it will be abandoned and removed due to lack of government support. Less talked about is the ACR. CN has ceased service between Sault and Franz where the line crosses with CP. They are still running between there and Hearst for interchange. It seems likely that the portion to the Soo will see abandonment in the near future as there isn't any forthcoming traffic to sustain it.
Or, more likely, the CN reopens the track and picks up the traffic that previously used the HCR.
Backshop Or, more likely, the CN reopens the track and picks up the traffic that previously used the HCR.
The traffic that uses the HCR will switch to truck or go through the States.
ttrraaffiicc Backshop Or, more likely, the CN reopens the track and picks up the traffic that previously used the HCR. The traffic that uses the HCR will switch to truck or go through the States.
I second that Backshop. How does he know? Paper mills for one prefer, and want boxcar over truck and where rail is available they use it. Paper weighs out before it cubes out, and you can stuff alot of heavy paper rolls in a 60' Hi-Cube. Plus how many tanks of clay slurry and chemicals arrive by rail for said paper mills? Not to mention we don't know what the clause is for this line once G&W pulls out. I assume if no operator is found the line it reverts back to CP. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this. If anyone can clarify. Does Essar Steel in the Soo produce plate steel? Or coil?
SD60MAC9500 I second that Backshop. How does he know? Paper mills for one prefer, and want boxcar over truck and where rail is available they use it. Paper weighs out before it cubes out, and you can stuff alot of heavy paper rolls in a 60' Hi-Cube. Plus how many tanks of clay slurry and chemicals arrive by rail for said paper mills? Not to mention we don't know what the clause is for this line once G&W pulls out. I assume if no operator is found the line it reverts back to CP. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this. If anyone can clarify. Does Essar Steel in the Soo produce plate steel? Or coil?
Algoma Steel has said that they would shift the eastbound product to truck. Eacom and Domtar would be marooned without the CP line. It is widely believed that once G&W is gone that CP will begin the discontinuance process. They want nothing to do with it.
https://www.saultstar.com/news/local-news/hcrs-importance-for-northern-economic-prosperity-acknowledged
Seems like this issue is getting some attention.
Hopefully Ontario will find a solution to save the HCR
SD60MAC9500Hopefully Ontario will find a solution to save the HCR
SD60MAC9500 Hopefully Ontario will find a solution to save the HCR
Definitely starting to look that way. Though what the deal will actually be is still uncertain. Personally, I would like to see G&W gone.
Overmod SD60MAC9500 Hopefully Ontario will find a solution to save the HCR I wonder if the province could work with OPSEU Pension Plan Trust Fund and Jaguar to take this over...
I wonder if the province could work with OPSEU Pension Plan Trust Fund and Jaguar to take this over...
I thought about the same thing, but then I realized that the Provence of Ontario would be in a conflicted situation to give subsidies to a railroad that benefits the pension fund for their government employees.
The Pension Fund would only take it over if they could expect an annual return sufficient to meet the rate of return needed to fund pension payments. Typically a pension fund needs to earn 70%-80% of the funds paid out to pensioners from investment earnings. (I happen to be a board member on a state pension board.)
Iif Huron Central needs major capital investment right from the getgo to bring the plant in to shape for reasonable service transit times and to have hope of attracting additional businesses to generate traffic, it is not a good candidate for the Pension Fund to invest in.
Saulte Ste Marie is the biggest little city in the middle of a lot of big country. It will be difficult to attract more industry there to generate traffic. It is probably why G&W is pulling out.
I'd like to see Ontario Northland take over as mentioned by others.
BackshopWhy would a pension fund want to make such a risky investment?
I would hazard a guess that the 5 short lines purchased by the Ontario Pension Fund probably are generating sufficient revenue to maintain their physical plant to Class II standards (25 mph) and still earn enough to turn a profit that meets the Pension Fund's hurdle rate. Again, I am hazarding a guess. If I was on that Pension Fund's Board, that is the information that I would want to know before approving such a transaction.
https://www.sootoday.com/local-business/sudbury-competitor-looks-to-take-over-sault-to-sudbury-rail-line-as-current-operator-threatens-pullout-2754414
Overmod Backshop Why would a pension fund want to make such a risky investment? They've just made investment in 5 American short lines, and appear to be considering strategic operation of multiple short-line railroad properties. Since they are an Ontario entity, it might make sense to assume operations here, too, particularly if the Government helps in some of the, er, ways government can... ways that would not be forthcoming to G&W's "Canadian subsidiary entity", or any other American contract operator...
Backshop Why would a pension fund want to make such a risky investment?
They've just made investment in 5 American short lines, and appear to be considering strategic operation of multiple short-line railroad properties. Since they are an Ontario entity, it might make sense to assume operations here, too, particularly if the Government helps in some of the, er, ways government can... ways that would not be forthcoming to G&W's "Canadian subsidiary entity", or any other American contract operator...
Huron Central got a reprieve. G&W says talks with government are making progress, and they will give it at least 6 more months to find a solution.
https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2020/12/12-huron-central-gets-reprieve--again
MidlandMikeHuron Central got a reprieve. G&W says talks with government are making progress, and they will give it at least 6 more months to find a solution. https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2020/12/12-huron-central-gets-reprieve--again
Extortion of the highest order.
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