More than a Few Assorted Questions

[Anonymous]

I haven't been on the forums in about a month, so I hope everyone had a pleasant holiday season.

I have more than a few railroad questions on varied matters. Any help you could provide would be more than appreciated.

Here they are:
1.) On TWC territory without ABS, is it possible to run a train and then run a following movement while the first track warrant is still in effect, and if so, how?

2.) On old timetable-train order non-ABS track, the brakeman is supposed to drop flares if the train falls behind schedule. As I understand it, a following train which encounters a lit flare should then proceed at restricted speed. Firstly, how far behind schedule must a train be for a flare to be dropped? (I.e., you wouldn't drop a flare if you're three seconds behind schedule, but would if you're thirty minutes late.) Secondly, how and when does the following movement learn that it is safe to proceed at normal speed again? Finally, what is to protect a train if it falls grossly behind schedule before it gets to the next timetable point where a time is listed.

3.) What is the difference between an F7 and an FP7?

4.) I guess I missed this somewhere along the line, but could someone please give me a brief overview of the merits of DC vs. AC traction motors?

5.) I know that UP 3985 is the largest operating steamer, and that SP&S 700 is the third largest. What's number two?

6.) Does anybody know a website which lists specifications of Alco diesels?

7.) Is there a system or rule of thumb for the spacing of staybolts and fusible plugs on a locomotive firebox, and if so, what?

8.) A couple of questions about modern GE diesels: What is the full designation of the locomotive commonly refered to as the DASH-9? I have heard C44-9W, GE-9-44CW, and a few others. What does the C stand for? Also, what are the external visual differences between a DASH-9, AC6000CW, and an AC4400CW, if any?

9.) If I'm looking east on a two track (double or dual) east-west mainline, the track on my right is track one, right?

10.) What do the F and P in F59PHI stand for?

I feel a little selfish asking all of these questions, but they have been bugging me for a long time. Any help you could give would be most greatly and sincerely appreciated [:)].

Most gratefully yours,
Daniel Parks

[espeefoamer]

#3. The FP7 is 4 feet longer,to provide space for a steam generator boiler.
#4.AC traction motors can be run at low speeds for a long period of time without overheating.This makes them useful on coal or ore trains.
#8. C= 6 wheel trucks.AC units will have a large flat area behind the cab on the left side.
#10.F= Funit. P= Passenger.
Hope this helps.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

8.) A couple of questions about modern GE diesels: What is the full designation of the locomotive commonly refered to as the DASH-9? I have heard C44-9W, GE-9-44CW, and a few others. What does the C stand for? Also, what are the external visual differences between a DASH-9, AC6000CW, and an AC4400CW, if any?

https://www.getransportation.com/general/locomotives/locomotives.asp
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=27654
The end of the radiators are different on AC6000CWs than on the others. I believe that the box behind the cab on the conductor's side is slightly larger on the AC4400CW.

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

9.) If I'm looking east on a two track (double or dual) east-west mainline, the track on my right is track one, right?

I would think that would depend on what the railroad designated it. There probably is no standard.

[arbfbe]

1. Early TWC allowed trains to follow in the same territory. It has now been changed so that the DS has to "roll up the track" behind the first train before the following train can enter that territory. The lead train reports clear of a station or milepost and then the DS can grant authority for the following train up to the point the first train has cleared.

2. The trains were supposed to drop fussees if their train speed fell below 1/2 their authorized speed or were otherwise delayed. The following train was required to stop and allow the fussee to burn out before proceeding. The fussee burn time was 10 minutes. Operators at train order stations were supposed to lower their order signals to the stop position after any train passed and hold it at stop for 10 minutes. Train crews were also supposed to maintain a 10 minute interval between their train and the train ahead when leaving the same station. It would therefore seem that any train that fell 10 minutes behind schedule would be required to drop fussees. I do not know that is actually the case but it seems reasonable given all the other 10 minute requirements.

3. answered earlier

4. No brushes in the traction motor, less wear, maintenance, less damage to commutators due to brush bounce. No hot spots on the commutator leading to stall burns and raised commutator segments. All traction motors are trying to move at the same speed determined by the frequency of the AC so less wheel slip and greater adhesion. The ability to hold trains on mountain grade by reversing the reverser while making air tests on the train when the independent brakes of the locomotive are not enough.

8. GE model designations made sense back in the days they were U (Universal) XX for horsepower and either B for four axles or C for six axles. Then they got cute and came up with -7 to trump EMDs -2. After that they just got out of control and put out a mush of alphanumeric designators that became too big to fit into the railroad's UMLR system used for train lists and other accounting proceedures. Railroads quickly started to redesignate the units with their own less complicated enumerators that would fit into the UMLR pattern without requiring a massive reprogramming of their software. The numbers in the GE Genesis system is making sense again and will fit better into the UMLR. I do suspect the 00s will get dropped from the designation and thus the AC4400CW will just become an AC44CW.

9. Determined by each railroad. Yours is backwards from the BNSF where the north track is the Number 1 track. The west track is Number one. Yard tracks commonly number from the main thus a yard north of the main track number up to the north and a yard south of the mainline numbers up to the south. Check your applicable rule book or special instructions to be sure.

10 EMD cab units were Fs if they had 4 axles and Es if they had 6 axles. Then there were F45s and FP45s. We can ignore them for this answer. Thus the F59PHI is an EMD four axle cab unit, series 59 (for the engine type and hp), P for passenger service, H for headend power (electrical) instead of a boiler and I for an isolated cab that has rubber mounts to isolate vibrations and noise to crew members.

[jeffhergert]

Question 2. The flagman would drop off fusees when the speed of the train dropped down to less than half of the authorized maximum speed. If the train kept going slow, the flagman would drop off additional fusees. The burning time of the fusee regulated the time between fusees. Drop off a 10 min fusee. If still going slow before the 10 minute time expires, drop off another until speed picks up.
When a following train came across a burning unattended fusee, they were to stop wait for it to burn out, or if they couldn't stop before it and couldn't see it burning under the train, (OK as long as you weren't already at restricted speed.) they were to wait for 10 minutes. (Some rulebooks I have seen allowed the train to extingui***he burning fusee) Then when able to proceed, go 1 mile at restricted speed. If at restricted speed and you encounter another burning fusee, you stop before passing this time.
Jeff

[tree68]

9. I can't find my map, but a little research suggests that on the CSX Chicago Line through Syracuse the north track (usually westbound) is #1 and the south track is #2.

[Anonymous]

Dear espeefoamer, ericsp, arbfbe, jeffhergert, and tree68,
Thank you very much for all your help. I have two new questions:
1.) On CTC lines before the advent of radio, what did the dispatcher do if he needed to give a train something such as a slow order? What did he do if he needed to give a train a slow order in timetable-and-train order territory after the train had passed the last train order operator's station before the slow order location?

2.) If a railroad excepts a boxcar from a company such as RailBox, does the railroad have to know what is in it, and if so, how does it find out?

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[Justicar]

trainjunkie29 & arbfbe, Track Warrant Control allows for running two trains in the same direction with overlapping authority, in theory. In practice, arbfbe may well be right that the General Code of Operating Rules no longer includes rules for this practice like it once did when railroads routinely used manned cabooses allowing for Protection by Rule 99, the old flagging rule (which actually ties into your little query on fusees). In the early days of TWC cabooseless trains would get relieved from protection by rule 99 in every track warrant. The occasional light engine movement or rare train with a caboose would not be given this line in their track warrant and then the Dispatcher could write an authority to a following train issuing them a line 9, if I remember correctly, to not foul limits ahead of train or engine. The two trains could then proceed wagon train style across the division with only those two authorities.

Fast forward to the current operation with TWC and we have Radio Blocking on CP Rail. I have not heard if any other railroad had adopted these rules. It basically allows a preceding train to report clear of his limits to a specified point to a following train which in turn authorizes that train to follow along. The dispatcher has no involvment except to establish radio blocking between the two trains initially. They can continue across the division in this manner leaving the dispatcher freeer to tend to other things. The preceding train rolls up his authority to the following train, the following train repeats it back, an "ok" time is given and then it becomes effective. When the following train is about to run out of authority they call the preceding train to report by a mile post, switch or station sign before they have to slow down or stop, ideally.

Fortunately I don't have to use this system. I think its way too much work. As if I as a conductor didn't have enough to oversee, now I have to dispatch my own train.

[M636C]

I think Mark and I have agreed to diagree on this but my version of the evolution of F as a model number is that it stood for "Fourteen Hundred Horsepower", just as E stood for "Eighteen Hundred Horsepower", S stood for "Six Hundred", N for "Nine Hundred" and T for "Twelve Hundred". The original F units were 1350 HP, but "T" was already used so they rounded up to 1400. My version of the "T" in FT was that it indicated a drawbar coupled pair of units, ie "T" for Twin. This is supported by some early EMD references to the Santa Fe units, which always had couplers between all units as model FS, "S" for Single. I was shown these documents by Don Dover around 1980.
Since the "T" model appeared between the "E" and the "F", sequential allocation seems an unlikely reason. Of course, none of this had any significance post WWII, because the power ratings changed. Except for the "F", the power referred to by the letter was the original rating of the 201A engine in various cylinder configurations which was superseded by 1940. Apart from this historical aspect, I of course agree with everything that Mark says.

Peter

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

9. I can't find my map, but a little research suggests that on the CSX Chicago Line through Syracuse the north track (usually westbound) is #1 and the south track is #2.

larry that is correct(for csx)[:)]
stay safe
Joe

[eolafan]

Also with all due respect to those who answered your questions before this, but actually the "F" in EMD parlance originally stood for "FIFTEEN" as in 1,500 HP and the "E" stood for EIGHTEEN as in 1,800 HP. Nowadays, I believe the "F" stands for FULL width cab, AND THE "P" stands for PASSENGER

[dehusman]

>1.) On TWC territory without ABS, is it possible to run a train and then run a following >movement while the first track warrant is still in effect, and if so, how?
====================
With a caboose. The key is that the rear of the first train has to be able to be protected (flagged).
====================
>2.) On old timetable-train order non-ABS track, the brakeman is supposed to drop >flares if the train falls behind schedule.
=========================
No. Not behind schedule. When the train drops below half the main track speed. So if the train is on 40 MPH track and is going 18 mph it drops fussees.
=========================
>As I understand it, a following train which encounters a lit flare should then proceed at >restricted speed.
========================
The train is supposed to stop, wait 10 minutes or until the fussee burns out if it can be seen, then proceeds for flagging distance at restricted speed.
========================
>Secondly, how and when does the following movement learn that it is safe to proceed >at normal speed again?
========================
When it stops finding fussees.
========================
> Finally, what is to protect a train if it falls grossly behind schedule before it gets to the >next timetable point where a time is listed.
=========================
There is no need to protect against following trains unless it drops below 1/2 the main track speed as described above. The schedule protects against opposing trains.
=========================
>3.) What is the difference between an F7 and an FP7?
==========================
FP7 is about 3-4 ft longer and has a steam generator in it.
==========================
> 9.) If I'm looking east on a two track (double or dual) east-west mainline, the track on my right is track one, right?
==========================
Depends on how the railroad numbers them, it can vary from railroad to railroad. On the UP on an E-W main, the north track is #1 and south track is #2.

Dave H.

[M636C]

Mark,

The document I saw, referring to the FS model, was a photocopy of a typed document. I don't recall seeing an EMD letterhead, but it was part of a multi-page document. At the time I had heard the "FS" description from other, but not neccessarily independent sources. About this time Preston Cook was still at EMD (he showed me through La Grange in 1977), and he would have had access to such papers, and could have passed them to the Dovers.

It was not a "Roster" or copy of a builder's list that would imply a railfan compilation, but was discussing equipment fitted to these units, something that "fans" didn't pay much attention to at that time. If this was a contemporary document (say about 1940) these were often retyped by recipients within the same organisation to provide multiple copies since no photocopiers existed at that time.

But the quick answer is that I saw such a document and I thought it was real.

At the time, I was unaware that ATSF units had couplers from new. It was not until I got a copy of Worley's "Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail" which included a locomotive diagram of a 100 class as an A+B+B+B set that I realised that EMD delivered units in this configuration and that all ATSF 100 class units were fitted with couplers from new.

This all came together about ten years ago when a Clyde (EMD Australian Associate builder) employee asked me if I knew what FT stood for. I remembered the "FS" designation and realised that "T" for Twin and "S" for single would explain the use of these letters, better than any other versions I'd heard.

Peter

[M636C]

Mark,

I have never questioned that E, N, S and T represented the horsepower of the original units with 201A engines. I regard that as established beyond question.

Do you have an alternative that fits any other facts? The only question is about "F" which (a) never had a 201A engine and (b) doesn't use the obvious letter because it was taken.

Since 567 engined, 2000 HP E units used "E:, why didn't the 1350 HP 567 engined B-B use "T" which was the nearest equivalent 201A engined unit? "F" was vacant, and perhaps it was selected to emphasise the "newness" of this road locomotive not confined to passenger service.

By the way, does the prize meal include the air fare from Canberra? (I think I have frequent flyer points to cover it anyway!)

I agree the EMD coding is ridiculous, but I'm just reporting it, not inventing it!

But to repeat it for any other readers who are confused (or bemused):

S - 8-201A rated at 600 HP, examples SC, SW
N - 12-201A rated at 900 HP, examples NC, NW
T - 16-201A rated at 1200 HP only example TA, Rock Island unit
E - two 12-201A rated each at 900 HP, total 1800 HP examples ATSF E1A, joint E2A.

These letters lost their significance with the introduction of the 567 which was even originally more powerful than the 201A. Generally the code letter remained with the unit of the same type with the same number of cylinders.

So an NW-2 had a 12-567 but rated at 1000 HP
An E-3 had two 12-567s each rated at 1000 HP

A smaller V-6 engine was introduced for switchers, so the SW-1 had a 600 HP 6-567, thus retaining the original power rating with fewer cylinders.

The "T" code was not used for cab units with 16-567 engines, these using "F" designations.

Later SW was used for switchers with V-6, V-8 and V-12 versions of the 567 engine.

I did not invent this system, but I know of no other explanation that matches the choice of code letters to any feature of the locomotives concerned.

My analysis of the steam locomotive classifications of the railways of the People's Republic of China in 1978 is apparently still regarded as "mostly accurate", so I am reasonably confident of my methods.

Peter

[eolafan]

Mark, perhaps I was a little off base with my statements, allow me to correct them:

1. "F" meant Freight and FT meant FREIGHT with TWENTY SEVEN hundred horsepower.
2. The "F" in relatively modern times does mean FULL WIDTH but not only cabs but full cowl bodies, such as F-45 or F-40, etc.

Sorry for being so very incorrect while trying to help a fellow railfan, I will not try so hard in the future for fear of being wrong.

[Anonymous]

Dear Ventrue, Mr. Hemphill, M636C, JoeKoh, eolafan, and dehusman,
Thank you all so very much for all your help. Please, lets debate EMD, not each other.

Most sincerely and gratefully yours,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

Just to throw kerosene on the inferno,
To my understanding, the designation F came from the fact that the A-B-B-A demonstrator set of FTs had Forty-four hundred horsepower (2 x 2700 = 4 x 1350 = 4400). Because of this, I would tend to embrace the T for "Twin" explanation I have read here. I agree that using numbers would have been better for horsepower designation, but since N, S, and E stood for horsepower designations (read Classic Trains' "Streamliner Pioneers"), it seems reasonable that F would as well. Perhaps problems with this system were why the GP and SD locomotive series, as well as later F's, did use numbers for horsepower designation.

Now I'm just trying to figure out where H-16-44 fits into this [;)][:)].

Most sincerely and respectfully yours,
Daniel Parks

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29
Now I'm just trying to figure out where H-16-44 fits into this [;)][:)].

I'm going out on a limb here - no idea what the H stands for, but I'd bet the 16 is for horsepower (1600) and the 44 is for the trucks (B-B).

[M636C]

I'm not sure of the origin of the Fairbanks Morse designations, but the hood units had an "H" as in H16-44 (the rest as in tree68's description above) or H24-66 for the Trainmaster. The later cab units were "C" with an "F" for freight or "P" for passenger, and also "A" for A unit and "B" for B unit.

This gave the big Long Island units as CPA24-45 (they had four motors and five axles), while Canadian National had lighter CFA16-44 units, for example.

Peter