a few days ago I was at a crossing as a NS train passed there was one car in the middle of train, i am thinking a covered hopper, that caught my attention. What caught my eye was a white hose running along the length of the car attached (tied off) in numerous places. It was connected to the air hoses of the car in front of & behind it. Is this temporary means of by-passing a car that might have a leak or bad piping and keeping the rest of the air system intact?
Any one happen to have a photo of one in use?
dbduck a few days ago I was at a crossing as a NS train passed there was one car in the middle of train, i am thinking a covered hopper, that caught my attention. What caught my eye was a white hose running along the length of the car attached (tied off) in numerous places. It was connected to the air hoses of the car in front of & behind it. Is this temporary means of by-passing a car that might have a leak or bad piping and keeping the rest of the air system intact?
Couldn't have described its use any better!
Odds are, the car will be set off at the next place the problem can be addressed.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
That's exactly what it was - a way to bypass a car with defective brakes long enough to get it to a place where it can be repaired. There will be rules governing when this can be done and where in the train the car can be. You don't see bypass hoses much because there are other ways of disabling defective brakes on a car (branch pipe cut-out, truck cut-out) that will allow the car to remain in the train without a bypass hose. A bypass hose means there was probably something dreadfully wrong with the brake pipe on that car.
It is also termed as a 'wrap around' hose. It is used when a car's own brake trainline is broken and won't hold air. The car is now moving without air brakes - the car can not be the last car in the train. Line of road shop trucks may not have necessary equipment and/or supplies to repair the defect in the field and will thus attach the wrap around hose so the car can be moved to a proper shop track for repair.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68Odds are, the car will be set off at the next place the problem can be addressed.
Professional railroaders here will know, and I hope will recount, precisely what their railroads require in handling a car that is 'bypassed' in this fashion.
Curious if anyone would happen to have a photo of one in use?
Overmod tree68 Odds are, the car will be set off at the next place the problem can be addressed. I wonder about this. If I recall correctly, the Power Brake Law even as amended doesn't say all cars have to be actually braked in a particular train (and of course during the long transition era many cars were only given pass-through hoses for compatibility). At least one of the systems of PTC has the explicit capability of isolating the braking on a car that 'fails' testing without breaking the consist -- this resulting in a change in the proportioning algorithms to compensate for the 'lost' braking power. Professional railroaders here will know, and I hope will recount, precisely what their railroads require in handling a car that is 'bypassed' in this fashion.
tree68 Odds are, the car will be set off at the next place the problem can be addressed.
I wonder about this. If I recall correctly, the Power Brake Law even as amended doesn't say all cars have to be actually braked in a particular train (and of course during the long transition era many cars were only given pass-through hoses for compatibility). At least one of the systems of PTC has the explicit capability of isolating the braking on a car that 'fails' testing without breaking the consist -- this resulting in a change in the proportioning algorithms to compensate for the 'lost' braking power.
I think you mean ECP, not PTC.
I once had a unit sulphur train in winter that had more than 10 cars with run-around hoses, Sultran's old steel fleet was notorious for air leakage as the sulphur dust would get into every possible place and cause corrosion.
The run-around hose is a means of last resort, and is not carried on locomotives. They are placed and removed by mechanical personnel. We (CN in Canada) don't have any specific rules or limitations on how far such a car can be moved, they are treated just like any other car with inoperative air brakes.
In Canada the last three cars in a train must have operative air brakes, and no more than two consecutive cars can have inoperative air brakes at any other location in the train. This is to ensure that the tail end will stop itself in the (extremely unlikely) case of a train separation there, and to ensure proper propagation of an emergency brake application.
A train must have operative brakes on at least 85% of the cars, and cannot depart a safety inspection location (a place with car inspectors) with less than 95% operative brakes.
There is an exception for 'hospital moves' of wreck-damaged or antique equipment, provided that enough braking effort remains to safely control the train.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
BaltACD The car is now moving without air brakes - the car can not be the last car in the train.
Why not? The only reason I could think of was communication with the EOT, but I would think the bypass hose could be connected directly to the EOT.
Edit: Never mind. I think SD70 just answered my question.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
When they moved 4014 from Pomona they used some external hoses.
SD70DudeI think you mean ECP, not PTC.
The run-around hose is a means of last resort, and is not carried on locomotives. They are placed and removed by mechanical personnel.
Here's a video that shows the thing being done:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XBn2WPeaqpA
I would have to wonder how long the train had been sitting before the truck roll arrived (and possibly how much other traffic was affected by the stop). Surely if a train crew can change a hose, they can be permitted to do this.
(Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it would be a slippery slope and the carmen's union would get out their RPGs for the next time they see me... but it would sure beat the time and expense. What I'd gently suggest is that the train crew be given optional body-cam equipment and a carman be connected via 'telepresence' -- at a minimum plus six-minute increments -- to satisfy the union concern while car work is being done.)
OvermodI did indeed. You can see I didn't get enough coffee this morning and read too much of the Wrong Paradigm thread.
Although when you dial in the PTC, you do put in the number of operative brakes. And one road we run on, if there is more than x% inoperative, you cut out the PTC system.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmannAlthough when you dial in the PTC, you do put in the number of operative brakes. And one road we run on, if there is more than x% inoperative, you cut out the PTC system.
I would argue that it would be potentially dangerous both to rely on self-reporting and to be blind to mistakes in actual state of the braking power; it seems to me that in the second Duffy's Curve wreck PTC would just as blithely started down the hill into much the same disaster.
I don't know. I am not a software engineer.
You either have to self-report, it it has to be able to pull updated consist data (which is self reported by someone else). There is no magical way for PTC to count its cars or brakes.
I know some railroads mistreat their employees, but heaping them into the tender is the last straw!
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Overmod Surely if a train crew can change a hose, they can be permitted to do this.
Surely if a train crew can change a hose, they can be permitted to do this.
There are a surprising number of us who possess very little mechanical aptitude.
I recall someone once attempting to move a defective car by chaining it to the operating lever on the next car. All it did was rip the lever off.
Guys couple cars together without first checking that the drawbars are lined up, or do not notice that the air hose is hanging up on the drawbar, so the gladhand gets crunched when the coupling is made.
Others try to put an F knuckle into an E coupler, and fight with it for an hour wondering why it won't fit.
Paul Milenkovic I know some railroads mistreat their employees, but heaping them into the tender is the last straw!
I was wondering what you were talking about till I went back and looked at the picture of 4014 again.
SD70DudeOthers try to put an F knuckle into an E coupler, and fight with it for an hour wondering why it won't fit.
Whoever in the AAR that permitted the design of BOTH E and F knuckles should have been forced to take a long walk off a short pier.
Some railroads do actually carry Tun around hose reels on their power, I think CSX does.
GBSD70ACeSome railroads do actually carry Tun around hose reels on their power, I think CSX does.
After 50+ years with CSX and its predecessors - I am not aware of 'wrap around' air hoses being carried on locomotives. They get applied by the Car Department when repairs cannot be made in the field.
BaltACD GBSD70ACe Some railroads do actually carry Tun around hose reels on their power, I think CSX does. After 50+ years with CSX and its predecessors - I am not aware of 'wrap around' air hoses being carried on locomotives. They get applied by the Car Department when repairs cannot be made in the field.
GBSD70ACe Some railroads do actually carry Tun around hose reels on their power, I think CSX does.
Conrail had them, at least in later years.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Paul of Covington Paul Milenkovic I know some railroads mistreat their employees, but heaping them into the tender is the last straw! I was wondering what you were talking about till I went back and looked at the picture of 4014 again.
To a steam fan, those are just the high priced seats!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
well okay I might have been thinking of NS. I don't remember which but I know one class 1 usually has run around hoses in the nose of their power.
Congratulations on 50+ years tho?
SD70Dude Overmod tree68 Odds are, the car will be set off at the next place the problem can be addressed. I wonder about this. If I recall correctly, the Power Brake Law even as amended doesn't say all cars have to be actually braked in a particular train (and of course during the long transition era many cars were only given pass-through hoses for compatibility). At least one of the systems of PTC has the explicit capability of isolating the braking on a car that 'fails' testing without breaking the consist -- this resulting in a change in the proportioning algorithms to compensate for the 'lost' braking power. Professional railroaders here will know, and I hope will recount, precisely what their railroads require in handling a car that is 'bypassed' in this fashion. I think you mean ECP, not PTC. I once had a unit sulphur train in winter that had more than 10 cars with run-around hoses, Sultran's old steel fleet was notorious for air leakage as the sulphur dust would get into every possible place and cause corrosion. The run-around hose is a means of last resort, and is not carried on locomotives. They are placed and removed by mechanical personnel. We (CN in Canada) don't have any specific rules or limitations on how far such a car can be moved, they are treated just like any other car with inoperative air brakes. In Canada the last three cars in a train must have operative air brakes, and no more than two consecutive cars can have inoperative air brakes at any other location in the train. This is to ensure that the tail end will stop itself in the (extremely unlikely) case of a train separation there, and to ensure proper propagation of an emergency brake application. A train must have operative brakes on at least 85% of the cars, and cannot depart a safety inspection location (a place with car inspectors) with less than 95% operative brakes. There is an exception for 'hospital moves' of wreck-damaged or antique equipment, provided that enough braking effort remains to safely control the train.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding SD70Dude Overmod tree68 Odds are, the car will be set off at the next place the problem can be addressed. I wonder about this. If I recall correctly, the Power Brake Law even as amended doesn't say all cars have to be actually braked in a particular train (and of course during the long transition era many cars were only given pass-through hoses for compatibility). At least one of the systems of PTC has the explicit capability of isolating the braking on a car that 'fails' testing without breaking the consist -- this resulting in a change in the proportioning algorithms to compensate for the 'lost' braking power. Professional railroaders here will know, and I hope will recount, precisely what their railroads require in handling a car that is 'bypassed' in this fashion. I think you mean ECP, not PTC. I once had a unit sulphur train in winter that had more than 10 cars with run-around hoses, Sultran's old steel fleet was notorious for air leakage as the sulphur dust would get into every possible place and cause corrosion. The run-around hose is a means of last resort, and is not carried on locomotives. They are placed and removed by mechanical personnel. We (CN in Canada) don't have any specific rules or limitations on how far such a car can be moved, they are treated just like any other car with inoperative air brakes. In Canada the last three cars in a train must have operative air brakes, and no more than two consecutive cars can have inoperative air brakes at any other location in the train. This is to ensure that the tail end will stop itself in the (extremely unlikely) case of a train separation there, and to ensure proper propagation of an emergency brake application. A train must have operative brakes on at least 85% of the cars, and cannot depart a safety inspection location (a place with car inspectors) with less than 95% operative brakes. There is an exception for 'hospital moves' of wreck-damaged or antique equipment, provided that enough braking effort remains to safely control the train. How does a crew know when they have a car like that in their train?
How does a crew know when they have a car like that in their train?
It's part of your paperwork. Any cars with inoperative air brakes are supposed to be noted on the train brake status report* section of the train journal.
*TBSR is the Canadian term, other railroads may use a different name.
When a train is made up at a safety inspection location the crew will receive the TBSR information from the Carmen who have performed the brake test. When cars are added to the train at other locations the train crew has to do the brake test themselves, if previous TBSR info is not available or the cars being picked up have been 'off air' (not connected to a locomotive) for more than 24 hours*.
*Another Canadian rule, may be different down south.
Just watched a train getting ready to head east out of Calgary (probably #196) and the last unit had a bypass hose. I suspect it may have been the lead unit in a sideswipe collision last week at Palliser siding in the Kicking Horse canyon. Sorry, I didn't hang around until the train left and I could take a photo. It's just a long hose hung along the side of the locomotive (in this case) or a car, connected into the regular brake pipe of the equipment ahead and behind.
GBSD70ACe well okay I might have been thinking of NS. I don't remember which but I know one class 1 usually has run around hoses in the nose of their power. Congratulations on 50+ years tho? BaltACD GBSD70ACe Some railroads do actually carry Tun around hose reels on their power, I think CSX does. After 50+ years with CSX and its predecessors - I am not aware of 'wrap around' air hoses being carried on locomotives. They get applied by the Car Department when repairs cannot be made in the field.
Norfolk Southern engines usually have the wrap around hoses them. Uncle Pete has them, but not normally carried on the engine.
I read a recrew report once where they placed one on a car, but it had so many leaks that they had to find another one.
Jeff
zugmann Overmod I did indeed. You can see I didn't get enough coffee this morning and read too much of the Wrong Paradigm thread. Although when you dial in the PTC, you do put in the number of operative brakes. And one road we run on, if there is more than x% inoperative, you cut out the PTC system.
Overmod I did indeed. You can see I didn't get enough coffee this morning and read too much of the Wrong Paradigm thread.
On trains with more than 5% of articulated intermodal equipment (think 3 and 5 pack well cars) the train type must be put in as "intermodal". PTC will compensate for the descrepancy of the number of operative brakes not equaling the number of actual cars/platforms in the train.
When initializing PTC, we are to edit what's on the PTC screen to reflect what our paperwork says. It happens where some numbers may be slightly off when comparing the two. Even though the downloaded PTC consist is supposed to reflect the printed out version.
jeffhergert articulated intermodal equipment (think 3 and 5 pack well cars)
Now you've done it: you've triggered some more questions. Are there long hoses available to span these 3 or 5 packs? Would they splice multiple hoses end to end? Can part of these cars be by-passed? As I understand it, a 5-pack has three brake cylinders and, I assume, three aux reservoirs. If the fault involves only one of these brake systems, is there a way to by-pass only that section?
Paul of Covington jeffhergert articulated intermodal equipment (think 3 and 5 pack well cars) Now you've done it: you've triggered some more questions. Are there long hoses available to span these 3 or 5 packs? Would they splice multiple hoses end to end? Can part of these cars be by-passed? As I understand it, a 5-pack has three brake cylinders and, I assume, three aux reservoirs. If the fault involves only one of these brake systems, is there a way to by-pass only that section?
Articulated intermodal cars have rubber air hoses with gladhands partway along the car, so that a single car air test can be easily performed. I've never seen it done, but one could easily part those hoses to cut in a runaround hose there.
Or you could just use multiple runaround hoses and connect them together. But if you go more than two car lengths without an emergency valve I believe that would be a violation of our air brake rules.
Thanks, Dude.
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