Abandonded Wye and None Use-Why not use the wye

[PiedmontNCRailfan]

Are there tax benefits to cutting a rail line so it can't be used but still owning the ROW? Do railroads even pay property tax on the small strips of land when a rail line runs?

 

Here is what makes me ask this question.

First pardon my lack of rail jargon, hopefully what I type will make sense.

The wye in Mooresville, NC that connects the line coming south from Barber Jct and the line that headed off to Troutman, NC is cut.  Rail is in the ground but the line has some pieces missing in a deliberate manner.  A train heading south from Barber Jct would head south to downtown Moorsville and then back up to the industry on the Troutman line, which is a dead-end spur now but at one time the line ran to Statesville, NC. For that short distance shoving the freight would not be a huge issue. That would work to allow the train to remove the freight cars in the industry and spot the freight cars at the industry.  Then the engine would be heading back to the wye with the engine in the front and the freight cars in the rear.

At the wye the engine could continue along the turn and keep the engine in front without any extra work to rearrange the order of the engine and freight cars.

With the top of the wye cut the engine would have to leave the Troutman line and head south to past downtown Mooresville where there is a passing track and then run the engine around the freight cars to have the engine leading the train back to Barber. 

Obviously the engine could shove from the rear all the way back to Barber but that is a good haul of many miles to do so and I imagine that is not the option used for safety reasons. I would hope the labor unions would object to that sort of movement.

I know the line south of Moorseville is intact but unused through Davidson but if that part of the line were to ever be brought back out of mothballs the upper wye could serve the same purpose where a train could pull engine first up the Barber side and back-up through the upper part of the wye into the industry and when pulling out the engine is already leading heading south back to Charlotte. 

Keeping the wye in use would require some MOW expenditures but the cost of labor to switch around the engine on the passing track in downtown Mooresville can't be cheap when done a few times a week and the length of line I am talking about is a few football fields long.  It can't be that much in MOW costs.

I could provide a KML file for anyone that is interested in this area and one wants to see the area I am asking about.

 

So what is the financial reason to cut the top of the wye?

[MidlandMike]

I presume the leg of the wye that was cut is the one with the sharp curvature?  Maybe it is sharper than they like to use.

[Semper Vaporo]

If the track is connected and useable, then it has to be maintained to a certain level and the switches need to be maintained to enter and exit the wye.  Cut it all out (either remove or spike/weld the switches) and you reduce costs.  Probably cut property taxes, too.  Unusable track/land is probably taxed at a lower rate than "active" (regardless of use) track.

[csxns]

PiedmontNCRailfan

to Troutman, NC is cut. 

Last time i was in Troutman the tracks were gone.

[York1]

I don't know about the wye usage, but the tax question recently came up in our local newspaper.

We have double mainline BNSF come through our county.

The local tax assessor explained it is a complicated tax system.

The distance, single or double track, sidings, number of trains coming through, etc. all figure into the amount of tax.  While the assessor didn't talk about tracks no longer used, I have to think the land would still be taxed at a lower rate.

[PiedmontNCRailfan]

You are correct the tracks to Troutman are gone past the one or two industries on the Mooresville side.  I used the word cut, but  "totally gone and removed" would have been a better wording since cut has another meaning in railroading.

I drove through Troutman about a year ago for the first time in about 25+ years and it was very hard to even see evidence of the old ROW in most places.  I was driving so I had to pay attention to the road.  The last time I did drive through Troutman 25-28 years ago I remember seeing either track still in the ground or at least the old ROW grading  was very obvious. It was very hard to make out any evidence of rail in the area last year.   I did not follow the line all the way to Statewville but turned on Old Mountain Road and headed to I-40 and Catawba County.

[PiedmontNCRailfan]

So it could be sharp curvature but it seems tax burden is the key here.  I should dig around the Iredell County tax maps, which should be on-line and see what that strip of land is valued at compared to some of the track on the spur.

When I looked at tax maps in my home county a couple of year ago the tax value came up as zero for rail lines and things like electrical substations.  The undelvoped stand of trees behind my house also came up as no tax value so maybe those numbers can 't be trusted.  I would like to think the owner of the land behind my house is paying something to own the land if we are going to assess property tax. It is property even if not as valuable in its undeveloped state at present.

 

[diningcar]

 

Railroad property taxes are so complicated as can be imagined by the very issues discussed here. Each state has it own system and the local assessors hace no part it. 

An example but unrelated to any specific state:

The state department with the responsibility establishes a value for different components of all railroad assets and the determines a taxing value for each component, ie, land, main track, branch line track, yard or secondary track, shops, office  buildings and so forth. Then with a annual reporting from each railroad of its current components the state establishes a total tax for each railroad in that state. Then the state allocates  a proportionate share of each railroads taxes to each county/parish/whatever that is consistent with those components located within that county, etc.

 

 

[mudchicken]

Fortunately York1's taxman is not allowed to touch the railroad - he just can count on the disbursement check from the state showing up like clockwork. (DC and I know plenty of stories about railroads moving terminals because some of the more outlandish tax schemes (like Syracuse-Coolidge KS ... Coolidge pretty much shrivelled-up and died.)

Mooresville Jcn - Troutman was abandoned by Southern Ry in 1982 (FD-30081)...Fairly good chance NS no longer owns it (because there is no ICC/STB discontinuance of service and some of the rail is still there, good chance that somebody else now owns the rail, improvements and fee interest (like a county economic development group)

[Gramp]

Sounds akin to charge what the traffic will bear rate making. 

[PiedmontNCRailfan]

I went to the Iredell County GIS and a very nice home and yard just north of the wye has boundaries that include the part of the wy in question.  Also looking around a bit I never noticed any property boundaries for just the track ROW.  All of the property boundaries inclused the track. I only checked a few properties. 

I need to check other areas of the same county where property is along the NS line from Salisbury to Ashevile and see if that property is marked off on the map in the same fashion.

At this point looking at tax records got me no new info.

[mudchicken]

50-50 chance the county GIS is flawed to some degree (just sayin')... Be very suspicious if the recent sales history in the assessor link shows no ties to deeds in the clerk & recorders office....railroad property does not automatically revert under all colors of title.

 

GIS means Get It Surveyed!

[PiedmontNCRailfan]

So I did check out the area around Statesville and the only area platted out with boundaries was the yard at the wye in Stateesville, which would have been the northern end of the Troutman line discussed earlier in the thread.

I jumped over to my home county of Guilford County, NCand that was a rabbit hole I needed not go down as the Guilford GIS is full of a ton more info and rather responsive.  Anyway I live near the H-Line which is really owned by the NC RR Company and nothing was marked there in most cases as separate property lines except where the rail was very close to a state road and then the property lines were basically what one would have for property lines at roads.  I also checked out the line that runs from Greensboro to Winston-Salem, NC which is owned by Norfolk Southern and same situation. 

At the Amtrak station in downtown Greensboro (on the state owned/NS Leased  H-Line) there was a property line for Southern Railway around the old A&Y line and again for the freight yard at Pomono a few miles west of downtown and also on the H-Line.  There are two circles of land inside of the Pomono Yard that are leaseholds to Southern Railway.  And there started the rabbit hole. I assume these leaseholds are from some old industry that no longer exists except as the owner of the underlying leasehold, whatever that term is.

There was some info on the tax records for the Pomono yard and the area where the roundhouse stood until a few years ago, a few being 15-20 years ago I guess.

[Deggesty]

Has the name of the yard been changed from Pomona to Pomono? Or, is it pronouced that way?

I used that station at least twice while Amtrak thought it was a better place than the now re-used station in Greensboro.

[GERALD L MCFARLANE JR]

Did everyone just ignore the comment about the added cost for the crew using the run around track vs just keeping the why in place?  Crews aren't paid based on number of moves, so long as they get what ever job they have to perform with in the time frame they're on duty and the lines are within the same district there's no additional cost for extra moves.  It does save the carrier on taxes to remove unused lines but keep the land...undeveloped land is usually charged at a lower rate than developed land.

[PiedmontNCRailfan]

I mistyped it and did not notice.  Your spelling is correct.

 

If you get a chance to see the "new" Amtrak station in Greensboro then please do so.  For a city of its size then and now it is a very grand station, and plenty of room unlike the small room at the Pomona freight yard that was one half of the yard offcice. There is even a small convenience store that is open most of the daylight hours. We just don't do things on that scale anymore and not size scale but just nice scale.

 

I was going to be trained to be a station host in late April.  That is on hold for now of course.  Hopefully that training can take place on a weekend that will work for me in the summer, as long as it is safe for everyone.

(I typed this last night and the internet went out as I was sending the post.  I don't think the first message made it through, but if it pops up somewhere then my apologies for the near duplicate post.)

[PiedmontNCRailfan]

GERALD L MCFARLANE JR

Did everyone just ignore the comment about the added cost for the crew using the run around track vs just keeping the why in place?  Crews aren't paid based on number of moves, so long as they get what ever job they have to perform with in the time frame they're on duty and the lines are within the same district there's no additional cost for extra moves.  It does save the carrier on taxes to remove unused lines but keep the land...undeveloped land is usually charged at a lower rate than developed land.

I applied for a job as a conductor for NS about 2 years ago.  The job area has been consolidated over the years and I think from Greensboro the job would requre at times work with switching yards that would go up to Lynchburg and over to Durham and Winston-Salem and then down to the main yard at Linwood.  It was a large area to drive to in 90 minutes time. That work was paid by the hour.

The HR team mentioned the local runs on a train were paid for each run.  It sounded like if you had to sit and wait for Amtrak that was not getting paid.  This is all union negotiated pay, of course, and I am sure there was going to be some set pay to travel from Linwood to Mooresville and back and likely a few hundred dollars.  I would think the union would negotiate for a higher trip pay if the time is going to add 30 min, at least, to every trip and I would think an hour.  Even if the labor cost is set for a trip it would still be a higher cost going forward.

Spoiler alert: I was not hired, and that may have been for the best in hindsight. They were hiring like crazy for a bit but now layoffs and I would have been low on the seniority list.

[Deggesty]

I have been in the station in Greensboro twice--many years ago; I have only been through there since Amtrak moved back, so I  really have no idea of its current appearance.

[PiedmontNCRailfan]

Deggesty

I have been in the station in Greensboro twice--many years ago; I have only been through there since Amtrak moved back, so I  really have no idea of its current appearance.

Here is picture of the outside. I don't know why Amtrak did not also take a picture of the inside as well.  That is the real beauty.

https://www.greatamericanstations.com/stations/greensboro-nc-gro/

I did find this, though a picture does not really do it justice.

https://www.greensborodailyphoto.com/2010/07/inside-j-douglas-gaylon-depot.html

http://doyledickersonterrazzo.com/projects/transportation/j-douglas-galyon-depot/

Also do a Google search for Gaylon Depot pictures and a good many interior and exterior pictures are avaiable.

Obviously a smaller city in the south is not going to rival Grand Central of 30th St but I am proud to call this my home station.

[Deggesty]

Yes, it is a nice station. I was in it, briefly, three times in the sixties, and did not remember much about it.

As to Nathaniel Greene, he has other namesakes in the South. Greene County in Alabama, with Eutaw (from Eutaw Springs, S.C., where General Greene lost to the Redcoats) as the county seat, and Greene County in Tennessee, with Greeneville as the county seat. If you enter Greeneville from the north on US 11E, be sure to note the overhead sign with the name GreenEville.