Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
PJS1Before computers trains on the PRR were controlled from towers along the right-of-way. It sticks in my mind that they were located every 10 to 15 miles along the railroad. Having grown up in Altoona, I could see Alto Tower from the 17th street bridge as the streetcar taking me to or from high school crossed it. Also sticking in my memory were towers at Bellwood and Spruce Creek. If my understanding is correct, the tower operators controlled the switches and signals near the towers. Is this correct? How much control (authority) did the tower operators have over the signals and the ability to switch a train from one track to another? Who had system wide control over the towers and their operators?
I worked the B&O Tower at HN Cabin in East St. Louis. The operator, in addition to controlling the railroad crossings at grade of the Alton & Southern crossing over both the Main tracks of the B&O and PRR also had control panels to cover the entrance to the PRR's Rose Lake Yard and to facilities out to Caseyville. Entrance and exit from Rose Lake were goverend by the Yardmaster and approved by the PRR Train Dispatcher, manipulation of the facilities on the PRR East of HN were under the direction of the PRR Train Dispatcher. Since it has been over 50 years since I worked that position, I don't remember who the next PRR operators location was to the East of HN.
During this period of time Operators were to give their OS's both to the Train Dispatcher as well as the next block operator in the direction the train was moving.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
PJS1 If my understanding is correct, the tower operators controlled the switches and signals near the towers. Is this correct? How much control (authority) did the tower operators have over the signals and the ability to switch a train from one track to another? Who had system wide control over the towers and their operators?
Question for Balt. Did Stores handle the NYC's access to CUT? or was there some other connection?
At Storrs Jct the Operator supervised at Switch Tender who was covered under the Trainmen's Agreement. The switches led from the NYC track to CUT crossing over the B&O double mains at the location. The Operator dealt with the B&O Cincinnati Terminal Dispatcher, the B&O St. Louis Division Dispatcher, the NYC Dispatcher and the CUT Train Director. Next B&O open office to the East was Cincinnati Jct, to the West was Dearborn tower in Lawrenceburg, IN. The B&O Double track ran from EE Storrs controlled by Cincinnati Jct. to CW Cabin about 4 miles West of Storrs Jct, and was signalled for current of traffic operation.
To access Storrs Jct one parked their vehicle on River Road (US 50) near the ladder the ascended the flood wall that was to the North of the railroad level, climb down the ladder and walk across the track to the operators building. The building backed up to the Ohio River, with the river being 30-40 feet from the back of the office at normal river levels. I was not there when the river was approaching flood stage. Cincinnati Jct operated (to my understanding) a 'door' on the flood wall, the B&O operated through the 'doorway' which got closed when flood conditions were predicted.
Authority of tower (block station) operators was dependent upon the amount of territory they controlled. In general, the operator was supervised by the train dispatcher who directed what track(s) trains were to use through specific locations. In the case of relatively simple interlockings this amounted to clearing switches and signals for specific routes. In more complex interlockings such as larger CTC installations controlling numerous control points the operator would have had more liberty to determine moves based upon a more timely assesment of relative status of trains. At "AR" at Gallitzin, for example, the operator would have more individual authority based upon immediate status and number of train movements. Many places in the Philadelphia terminal or Pittsburg had train directors (Zoo, Broad, etc.) who called the routes to levermen as interaction with a distant dispatcher would simply have been too time consuming for the volumes involved. At larger CTC locations (Thorn, Cola, locations on the Southwestern Region, for example) the dispathcer supervised operations and called ultimate priority of trains exiting the territory and the operator had significant flexibility for routing within the territory given those parameters. This amounted to judgment calls based upon a more intimate view of how relative movements were developing. I suspect that Alto had a fair degree of flexibility based upon priorities. In effect, this is why PRR had so many "towers" so late in the game: that the volume of traffic required a close view of how train movements were developing and how best to dispatch them efficiently. In my personal experience on PRR and PC, dispatchers most often specified the incoming and exiting tracks and order of priorities and left it to the operator (or train director) to determine how best to determine the routing within a series of interlockings. Experience also came into play, and a good relationship between operator and dispatcher allowed a great amount of flexibility so that the railroad operated with an almost seamless flow of traffic. In an era when volumes required fast handling, freight trains were "hotshots" and on-time performance was "the law", this system worked remarkably well.
Thanks to everyone for your responses. Very helpful.
I thought CTC meant that signals and switches for the whole CTC district (for want of a better term) are/were controlled remotely by the dispatcher. I didn't think operators were involved. What am I not understanding?
Lithonia Operator I thought CTC meant that signals and switches for the whole CTC district (for want of a better term) are/were controlled remotely by the dispatcher. I didn't think operators were involved. What am I not understanding?
An operator would usually be at the tower, handling the machine, while the dispatcher might be in a different location.
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Lithonia OperatorI thought CTC meant that signals and switches for the whole CTC district (for want of a better term) are/were controlled remotely by the dispatcher. I didn't think operators were involved. What am I not understanding?
CTC defines a set of rules that apply to the track(s) involved - the rules do not specify who is actually manipulating the remote switches and signals. In CSX rules who operates the 'machine' is defined as the Control Operator - be that the Train Dispatcher or some other individual.
With a manned interlocking - the switches and signal are connected to the office that operates the - originally with man powered pipe lines. Remotely operated interlocking constitute CTC at those locations. Different carriers implemented CTC in different ways.
The B&O's first CTC installation was between Wheeling and Pittsburgh on what later became the W&P Subdivision of CSX and was installed in 1927. The 'machine' was operated by the Train Dispatcher at CTC Tower in Washington, PA. A scheduled passenger train operated the 60 mile extent of the W&P Sub in approximately 2 hours in 1955. In most all B&O installations the CTC machines were operated by Train Dispatchers.
There was 'some' B&O installations where Operators did control 'remote interlockings'. One that comes to mind is FS Tower in Ohio located between Ravenna and Newton Falls. It was operated by the Operator at Newton Falls and was in Current of Traffic signal territory and thus was not operated under CTC rules.
Other carriers such as the PRR implemented CTC by having their manned interlocking Operators operate 'remote interlockings' for a number of miles on either side of the manned location.
Different carriers faced different realities and implemented their own solutions to their own problems.
Employee Timetables define the method(s) of operation for each territory in the Timetable.
I believe it was during the Conrail era, circa 1980s, that dispathcers were finally allowed to operate the CTC installations, or any interlockings, as opposed to block operators, by union agreement. This was at least unique to former PRR lines as I think NYC lines had long since been controlled by dispatchers, and many other roads as well, i.e. UP, SP, AT&SF, et al. However, the mere designation of CTC did not imply who actually controlled the apparatus. It was a form of signal system, regardless of who handled the switch and signal levers.
So CTC essentially means that trains proceed governed by signal indications (and standing rules) only, not with orders, track warrants, what have you? And switches are lined a certain way without the crew knowing in advance what they will find when they get there?
In other words, a train won't know until it arrives at a siding whether it will take the siding or hold the main?
The dispatcher calling the shots could be in Jacksonville FL, but, following his instructions, the actual signals and switches are operated by, say, a person at a tower in Folkston GA, for an interlocking there? The machine with the map and toggle-switches for track switches and signals would never be as far away as Jacksonville?
The definition of CTC is a signal system whereby the superiority of trains is superseded by signal indications; whereby trains are governed by what they see at a particular signal, as opposed to superiority by right or direction as used to prevail in olden days. Train orders (in their day) or track warrants still govern speed restrictions, work limits and other special conditions. Otherwise, trains know in advance what conditions are by preceding signals and their indications, be they fixed signals or boards as designated by track warrants (speed rest., work limits, etc.) that would include milepost locations. A train would know whether it would enter a siding based upon signal indication at that point and by restrictive indications at preceding signal locations in anticipation of a slower speed required for a diverging movement over a switch.
Nowadays with large computerized control centers, the control location may be two or more time zones away. The era of localized control has largely faded into nostalgia.
Lithonia OperatorThe dispatcher calling the shots could be in Jacksonville FL, but, following his instructions, the actual signals and switches are operated by, say, a person at a tower in Folkston GA, for an interlocking there? The machine with the map and toggle-switches for track switches and signals would never be as far away as Jacksonville?
That COULD have been the case, had the predecessors of CSX followed the PRR operational model. For the most part they did not follow that model. The CTC 'machine' was installed at the appropriate Dispatchers Office and the the machine operated all its territory from that one location.
The CADS systems the various carriers have implemented have carried that theory of location one step further - locating all Dispatchers Offices in a single location. In the case of CSX, Jacksonville. This is possible because of the reliable communication networks that have been established across the country.
The Timetable & Train Order method of operation came to exist when the means of communication were very limited - when telegraph was the only 'real time' communications between points that were out of visual sight of each other. As communication have improved over the decades so have railroads methods of controlling their operations.
1950's era CTC machine
A snipet of Train Dispatching in the 21st Century
Thanks, guys.
What would be the shortest stretch of CTC typically found on US and Canadian roads? And am I correct that out west a long stretch could be over a thousand miles?
Or we can go in the other direction. Until a few years ago, Brighton Park crossing in Chicago was not interlocked, requiring a statutory stop by every train prior to being signalled across by the watchman.
The ETT for IC's Joliet Sub showed CTC from 21st Street to Brighton Park and from Brighton Park to Joliet.
CSSHEGEWISCH Or we can go in the other direction. Until a few years ago, Brighton Park crossing in Chicago was not interlocked, requiring a statutory stop by every train prior to being signalled across by the watchman. The ETT for IC's Joliet Sub showed CTC from 21st Street to Brighton Park and from Brighton Park to Joliet.
How long are those segments?
There used to be a lot of local CTC territories, those not encompasing a complete subdivision. Many times the control operator was the operator at a train order station. I remember reading of such places on the CB&Q and Katy in Trains' Magazine. On the CNW, the Missouri Valley operator controlled the CTC from West Denison to Council Bluffs. On the Rock Island there were local CTC machines in Bureau IL, West Liberty IA, Council Bluffs IA, Short Line Jct (Des Moines) IA. (Those are the ones I can think of right now. All controlled relatively short segments on instruction from the dispatcher.
Jeff
Speaking of towers, here is a description (for new guys) on the duties of working Short Line Jct tower in Des Moines. It had a pistol grip interlocking machine (Now at the Boone & Scenic Valley Railroad in Boone, but not currently on display.) and some CTC boards. It controlled the RI's E-W/N-S crossing plus some other crossings in the area and access to Short Line Yard.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160331104549/http://rits.org/www/histories/SLTWork/SLTWork.html
jeffhergert Speaking of towers, here is a description (for new guys) on the duties of working Short Line Jct tower in Des Moines. It had a pistol grip interlocking machine (Now at the Boone & Scenic Valley Railroad in Boone, but not currently on display.) and some CTC boards. It controlled the RI's E-W/N-S crossing plus some other crossings in the area and access to Short Line Yard. https://web.archive.org/web/20160331104549/http://rits.org/www/histories/SLTWork/SLTWork.html Jeff
Sounds hectic!! Very interesting, but stressful. Thanks for that link.
I love the part about eating the lunch you brought on the way home, and copying orders while the other dispatcher is (incessantly) ringing you. In actuality, jobs such as this were some of the best on the RR, and they had their periods of intense activity and occasional quiet spells based upon the flow of traffic. One had a "ground level" appreciation for train movements and a myriad number of personalities with whom to interact. In my opinion these jobs were vastly superior to the sterile setting of a computerized control center, although most would seem quaint in comparison to the territories now handled by a dispatcher. Then again, large division dispatching offices such as, say, AT&SF in Clovis, NM, SP in Tucson, AZ, UP in Cheyenne, WY and so many others with their four or five CTC machines handling large districts were exciting locations, generally located next to the tracks and imbued with the passage of tonnage that lent a presence to the operation that has disappeared.
Gentlemen, this was some very interesting reading. The interaction between dispatcher, tower operator and trains back in the old days reminds me of a well-tuned, well-rehearsed symphony orchestra.
Lithonia Operator Thanks, guys. What would be the shortest stretch of CTC typically found on US and Canadian roads? And am I correct that out west a long stretch could be over a thousand miles?
Somewhere in southern Indiana there is a line dispatched with TWC except for a CTC 'island' of one siding. IIRC, their track warrant would take them to he first CTC signal where they would proceed on signal indication to clear the main at last named point, or something similar.
Web page of the NRHs' preserved PRR/ PC/ CR/ Amtrak (?) Harris Tower in Harrisburg, PA:
http://harrisburgnrhs.org/Harris.htm
13 photos page - levers, model board, 'guts", etc.:
http://harrisburgnrhs.org/HarrisRest.htm
Some links to Hunt Tower, Huntingdon, PA. At one time it was open to the public on certain days, but I can't easily find info on that:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mark_vogel/2079917490
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/189291990558138825/
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4521949
You could do a search to see if you can find more.
- PDN.
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