Greetings all,
This is my first post to the Trains forum and I'd like to start by asking a few questions. I apologize in advance if any of these seem redundant or stupid. By way of an introduction, I've been a fan of trains as long as I can remember (I just turned 60 a couple weeks ago). I am retired from the USAF and I spent 20 years repairing F-4 and F-16 aircraft. As a young boy, I had an uncle that worked on the C&O railroad out of Plymouth, MI. His house was only a block or two to the Plymouth yards and I can remember when we would visit them, my brother and I would walk the short distance and clamber around until we got chased off (usually not very quickly) I took lots of pictures with my little Kodak Instamatic camera of the trains and freight yards. Sadly, through all of my many moves over the years, the photos have been lost. We were always careful and watchful for trains as at the time, there were lots of freight trains though there from Detroit running north to Saginaw, west to Lansing and south to Toledo. Trains ran all hours of the day and night and they always woke us up in the middle of the night. From what I've been told, business has been curtailed quite a lot over the course of the last 40-50 years as the automobile industry has moved on from Detroit to other places. I am also an HO scale enthusiast but lack the room for that particular hobby.
Anyway, enough about that. My questions are pretty general in nature and I'm hoping to get some good answers without sarcasm or scorn.
Regarding the two most typically in service locos, what are the basic differences between the EMD and GE units? I know everyone has a personal preference like Ford vs. Chevy but I'm just looking for a quick (at a glance) way to determine the model types.
Regarding box cars: with the advent of the intermodal transport system, what are are they used for. Since they still require manual loading/unloading, it seems like a fairly inefficient means of transporting freight to me.
I've been watching lots of train videos on Youtube and I noticed on many of the long ones, there are typically several lead locos and occasionally one or two "helpers" in the middle of the pack and on very long ones sometimes a loco at the end. How are these connected to what I assume is the lead loco which controls the whole train?
I guess that's enought to start. I'm sure I'll have more as time goes by. Thanks in advance for any polite/helpful answers.
Slice812Regarding box cars: with the advent of the intermodal transport system, what are are they used for. Since they still require manual loading/unloading, it seems like a fairly inefficient means of transporting freight to me.
Well, somebody has to load and unload those containers too, so I don't think there's much difference there.
Keep in mind when you see a long train of double-stacked containers that some - perhaps many - of those containers may not be from a US shipper, or going to a US business. It might work out faster / cheaper for say a container of Chinese-made laptops being sent to England to travel by ship from China to California, then across the US to a Texas Gulf port by train, and then be put on another ship to England, rather than making the whole journey on one ship.
aboard! And thank you for your service in the USAF!
You've asked some good questions which our resident professional railroaders are better equipped to answer than I am, so be patient, I'm sure they'll get to you ASAP.
And remember what we used to say in the service, "The only stupid question is the one you won't ask!"
Regards - Steve
Welcome aboard! Nice to have you.
The mid-train and end-of-train engines are referred to as distributed power (or DP), and they are radio-controlled.
if used to be that GE units generally had shorter short-hoods than EMD units. So that would apply to older engines you see. However, as for modern engines, I can't help you; but someone will, I'm sure.
slice812Regarding box cars: with the advent of the intermodal transport system, what are are they used for. Since they still require manual loading/unloading, it seems like a fairly inefficient means of transporting freight to me.
Shipping, before containers, consisted of a shipper loading a vehicle at their plant, shipping the vehicle to a port. At the port when the vessel that is to handle is scheduled to arrive the port steveores would commence to unload the vehicle - package by package to either a warehouse or into the hold of the vessel. The vessel completes its voyage to the port for unloading by steveadors at destination, either to a warehouse or railcar - package by package. The railcar goes to its destination to be unloaded by the consignee's personnel - package by package. The supply chain consists of many hands and many packages - all subject to loss and/or damage at every transloading operation.
With containers, it gets loaded by the shipper's personnel, the container gets moved to the port and is either set aside to await its ship or be loaded directly on the ship, stevadores handle the containers at the port. The ship goes to its destination port where the container is unloaded from the vessel and either goes to truck or train to the consignee. The consignee unloads the container. The contents are untouched by anybody while in transit.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Slice812Regarding the two most typically in service locos, what are the basic differences between the EMD and GE units?
It can be difficult to do this in words when it's so much easier to look at pictures of the different units on a site like railpictures.net (which will let you search by locomotive type) and take note of distinctive features. There have been a couple of threads with pretty good differentiation of 'spotting features', and of course there is the Diesel Spotter's Guide (but I don't know to what extent that has been revised to contain recent locomotive types).
There is a pronounced difference in sound between the two manufacturers, as until very recently the engines used very different construction. (You can google the EMD 567, 645, and 710 engines, and some of the discussion about the 265H and current 1010 engines for EMD, and the long history of the Cooper-Bessemer design that still shares design elements with the current GEVO engine line.) Here experience (and watching YouTube) is your best friend.
One key question is whether you have a full carload of 'something' and want to ship it cheaply in bulk to a location that has a siding and dock. There are plenty of bulk shippers for whom an end-door limited-height container is restrictive. We've had a number of threads specifically about advantages of dedicated railcars, for example in the fresh-produce and frozen-meat segments, but until Kalmbach fixes the 'search community' function it's a crapshoot to find them. I would start by PMing user 'greyhounds' and having him refer you to some of his threads regarding this.
... several lead locos and occasionally one or two "helpers" in the middle of the pack and on very long ones sometimes a loco at the end. How are these connected to what I assume is the lead loco which controls the whole train?
Here is the current GE promotional sheet, in PDF, for the Locotrol III system.
I met a guy just today who retired from CSX a few years ago. I asked him if he had a preference between EMD and GE....and he said EMD.
I asked him why, and he claimed that the ladders to get into a GE were straight up verticsal climb, while the steps to get into an EMD are inclined like a staircase.
Said it made a big difference when you are carrying a bag. I was surprised that was the extent of his choice between the two. Anyone else ever hear that as the main explanation?
Convicted OneI met a guy just today who retired from CSX a few years ago. I asked him if he had a preference between EMD and GE....and he said EMD. I asked him why, and he claimed that the ladders to get into a GE were straight up verticsal climb, while the steps to get into an EMD are inclined like a staircase. Said it made a big difference when you are carrying a bag. I was surprised that was the extent of his choice between the two. Anyone else ever hear that as the main explanation?
Everyone has their own expectations on any piece of equipment.
I suspect had your inquiry gone further he likely would have called both brands a POS for a host of other reasons - thus his preference for the step solution of one over the other.
I suspect the most basic difference between EMD and GE locomotives is that the former usually uses a two-stroke engine, and the latter a four-stroke.
Of course, that difference doesn't show up much on the outside.
Ed
Boxcars work very well when they do not involve trans-loading. By this, I mean that the beginning and end of the shipping route are all on a railroad. But if a shipper or a destination is not on a railroad, trucks start getting involved. And both domestic containers and trailers start looking advantageous.
Containers, by the way, also come in two kinds: international and domestic. The former are usually 20 or 40 feet long (45 feet, occasionally). Domestic, these days, tend to be 53 feet. They rarely intermingle.
International containers must be able to be stacked something like 6 or 8 high. Domestic only 2. International containers must generally be able to fit in standardized guideways in the hold of a ship. They are only 40' long. Width is also similarly restricted. Domestic containers only have to fit on a trailer or railcar--they are never shipped side-to-side, so width is less critical. They only are stacked two-high, so they can be more lightly made.
A cursory explanation of the origination of container shipping.
https://www.falconstructures.com/blog/shipping-container-history-disrupting-industry
Slice812 Regarding the two most typically in service locos, what are the basic differences between the EMD and GE units? I know everyone has a personal preference like Ford vs. Chevy but I'm just looking for a quick (at a glance) way to determine the model types.
As was already noted, comparing pictures of the different locomotive models is the best way to spot differences.
Out in the field, when they are working hard, the most noticeable difference is the sound. The EMD 2-stroke screams like a jet engine and is very smooth idling, while the GE 4-strokes have a pronounced 'chug' when working hard and rattle a lot when idling.
The Tier-IV engines from both builders sound very similar, which makes sense as both the EMD 1010 and the Tier-IV GEVO are V12 4-stroke engines with exhaust recirculation. Their sound is kind of a mix of the previous engines, with the rough, rattling idle of a older GE, and the jet engine scream of a EMD at full throttle.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
A couple of books you might want to consider if you don't already have them:
Guide To North American Locomotives from Kalmbach (Check "SHOP" at top of this page.)
The Railroad -- What It Is, What It Does by John H. Armstrong (I think of this as my bible of railroading.)
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
I find one feature that seems to be easy to spot is the radiators. Otherwise, locos are kind of like cars these days - you have to find a badge somewhere to figure out who made it...
Older locomotives, like older cars, are easier to tell apart.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 I find one feature that seems to be easy to spot is the radiators. Otherwise, locos are kind of like cars these days - you have to find a badge somewhere to figure out who made it... Older locomotives, like older cars, are easier to tell apart.
Johnny
Deggesty tree68 I find one feature that seems to be easy to spot is the radiators. Otherwise, locos are kind of like cars these days - you have to find a badge somewhere to figure out who made it... Older locomotives, like older cars, are easier to tell apart. And, with some cars, you have to know which maker applies which fancy name to the car. Manufacturers formerly were glad to put there names where people could see them..
tree68 I find one feature that seems to be easy to spot is the radiators. Otherwise, locos are kind of like cars these days - you have to find a badge somewhere to figure out who made it... Older locomotives, like older cars, are easier to tell apart. And, with some cars, you have to know which maker applies which fancy name to the car. Manufacturers formerly were glad to put there names where people could see them..
And, with some cars, you have to know which maker applies which fancy name to the car. Manufacturers formerly were glad to put there names where people could see them..
In today's world Function dictates from.
Today's locomotives have the same function - haul maximum tonnage, reliably with minimum fuel consumption and maintenance.
Today's automobiles function is to haul its passenger(s) through air, reliably with minimum fuel consumption and maintenance.
Since the manufacturers of both locomotives and autos are facing the same obstacles for their products - the products in each category tend to look the same as they are all trying to be the best answer to the same question.
In prior generations Form was the driving element of designs; now it is Function.
Convicted One Slice812 Regarding the two most typically in service locos, what are the basic differences between the EMD and GE units? I met a guy just today who retired from CSX a few years ago. I asked him if he had a preference between EMD and GE....and he said EMD. I asked him why, and he claimed that the ladders to get into a GE were straight up verticsal climb, while the steps to get into an EMD are inclined like a staircase. Said it made a big difference when you are carrying a bag. I was surprised that was the extent of his choice between the two. Anyone else ever hear that as the main explanation?
Slice812 Regarding the two most typically in service locos, what are the basic differences between the EMD and GE units?
What the heck was he smoking?
A lot of what he said was true once, many years ago when EMD was the best. Not anymore in the wide nose era. EMD redesigned their steps on the SD70Ace variants. They actually made them worse. Both now are more like a 'staircase' but GE's are better. EMD, after complaints, added an extra step. But instead of repositioning all the steps to be equal distance apart, they just added one between two of the existings ones. It's almost a tripping hazard the way they did it.
EMD on the SD70Ace decided to place some circuit breakers and the battery knife switch in two cabinets along the long hood, as well as some on the back wall. GE, and previous EMD designs, had all that in the cab on the back wall. EMD heard the complaints on that and has moved the circuit breakers into the cab. The battery knife switch is still out along the long hood. There's no better feeling than walking back to start an engine in the rain, getting your gloves nice and soaked and then having to close the knife switch.
Many of the EMD SD70Ace variants have weak air compressors. You get below power notch 3 and some have a hard time maintaining main reservoir air pressure, especially when trying to charge the train line. I've had to stop at the bottom of a long grade after having a single SD70Ace as the only DP unit. It was in dynamics and it was losing air pressure enough that brakes on the rear end started setting up.
I think EMD quality started declining slightly before GM sold it off. It's declined a lot as each successive owner as taken over.
The main spotting feature is probably the fuel tank. GE has a more squared off tank, EMD is more rounded. For the new wide nose cabs, the EMD is more 'boxier' the GE has some triangular angled sections on the nose.
EMD SD70Ace
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/720242/
GE AC6600
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/716619/
The GE picture is two AC units followed by a SD70Ace. On the engineer's side, both of the trailing units show the engineer's side, the main reservoir tanks on the EMD are above the fuel tank. On the GE they're in a recessed area of the fuel tank.
Jeff
jeffhergertWhat the heck was he smoking? A lot of what he said was true once, many years ago when EMD was the best. Not anymore in the wide nose era. EMD redesigned their steps on the SD70Ace variants. They actually made them worse. Both now are more like a 'staircase' but GE's are better
Thanks for the feedback, I was hoping that actual T&E guys would chime in with their personal observations.
As far as my source's frame of mind, he seemed like an okay guy to me, but he did seem a tad overly non-chalant to me.....in a "hey it's just what I did for a living" sort of way. I've known garbage men who described their job with more enthusiasm than this guy.
I notice for some unaccountable reason no one has mentioned the trucks. On almost all EMDs since the 1990s there are very distinctive HTCR radial trucks of distinctive appearance; the GEs since introduction of the dash-9 series either have 'rollerblade' trucks or their weird proprietary radial -steering arrangement (which is unmistakably theirs and evident from almost any distance).
Learn these three types from pictures and you'll have no difficulty discriminating a huge percentage of the units you see.
There are other auditory clues. The dash-9 GEs and I believe some early GEVOs had a motor controller on their air compressor that would produce a very distinctive 'whoop!' sound when the compressor started.
To better understand the 'vertical step' complaint you should look at pictures of early U-boats (GE Universal series, like U25B or U36C). As I recall, on some of these not only were the steps completely vertical, they were recessed openings in a flat plate like the steps in the side of a passenger cab unit, and there were more of them to get to the higher deck height - I think I remember five on at least a couple of C-trucked examples. It would be misery to inch your way up these following the one-hand-planted-at-all-times rule with a grip.
I think Alco would've been the worst for climbing up with a bag.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/718935/
The older GE's somewhat better.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/715905/
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/713806/
The old EMD's definitely best.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/718286/
Although these EMD's would be a pain to get on/off. At least you could throw your grip up on the walkway first. More likely one person get on/off, then hand up/down the luggage. Of course, back then most crew members weren't loaded down like they were going on safari either.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/650370/
The worst thing about the conventional cab GE's was their small cab doors. I had a new grip, first trip, and I ripped it going through one of those @#$%?& doors.
jeffhergertI think Alco would've been the worst for climbing up with a bag.
Nope - F units are the worst...
jeffhergertI think Alco would've been the worst for climbing up with a bag. https://www.railpictures.net/photo/718935/ The older GE's somewhat better. https://www.railpictures.net/photo/715905/ https://www.railpictures.net/photo/713806/ The old EMD's definitely best. https://www.railpictures.net/photo/718286/
Those all appear to be extremely narrow doors into the cab...do "fitness challenged" crew have trouble squeezing through them?
tree68 jeffhergert I think Alco would've been the worst for climbing up with a bag. Nope - F units are the worst...
jeffhergert I think Alco would've been the worst for climbing up with a bag.
Well, it goes without saying that all carbody/cowl type engines with side ladders would be the worst.
It seems that ergonomics has never been a strong suit in railroading. Being a contortionist would give you a leg up.
Convicted OneThose all appear to be extremely narrow doors into the cab...do "fitness challenged" crew have trouble squeezing through them?
Yep. I'm not as svelte as I once was, and the vintage stuff can be a challenge. And, I'm 6'5", so knee space can be a challenge, too...
Gramp It seems that ergonomics has never been a strong suit in railroading. Being a contortionist would give you a leg up.
If you think the cab doors are bad, you should see some of the toilet compartment layouts, especially with the low nose compartments.
I work on a tourist railroad, running Alcos and 1st generation EMDs (F's and a GP9). Another difference between those manufacturers is how the generator "loads", or applies power to the traction motors. Put an Alco in notch 1, and the ammeter current pops right up to the level associated with that throttle notch. Same when going to notch 2, 3, etc. On the EMD's, there is a lag between moving the throttle and the flow of current to the traction motors. For example, go from notch 2 to 3 and there is a several second lag between the throttle movement, and the full application of the motor current, with the transition taking place gradually. In certain circumstances (like spotting a train at a specific spot on the platform), having an Alco is advantageous because you get the full effect of your throttle movement almost immediately. I'm sure in other circumstances (like a long freight train), the gradual application of the EMD's is preferred, to minimize in-train forces, but I don't have any experience on those.
For those running modern power, how quickly do they load? Are there still differences between GE and EMD (Progress Rail)?
Some EMD engines had an option that had a switch to place them in road or switching mode. In switching mode it made them load a lot faster. (For kicking cars in the yard.) I know I've seen it on switch engines and engines downgraded to switching or local service. Some may have been railroad applied rather than original from the builder installations.
On the new AC engines, there isn't as big a difference in loading between GE and EMD. The absolute worst engine to load up that I've come across were our EMD SD9043 models. While they were AC models, they were worse than the old DC GE models. I had to use one once on a yard job, all we were doing was reblocking a couple of trains in the yard. I'm sure the yard foreman was wondering what was taking me so long to respond to his signals.
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