I have recently been watching and listening to the Berea, Oh feed.
How does NS route it's Bellevue, Oh eastbound traffic thru Cleveland? I see trains on the NS (ex Conrail - NYC) route which originated in Bellevue. So, how does NS route a train from Bellevue to or thru Cleveland?
Question 2 - what is status of the old NKP line thru Cleveland? Looking at Google Maps it appears the line ducks under the ex Conrail/NYC main at Vermillion, Oh....thus the Bellevue trains do not connect there as there is no connection. Does NS still use the old NKP routing? Google Maps shows a Ford plant and USX steel mill in Lorain, Oh...obviously these would be good sources of originating and destined traffic.
Any thru trains or do most thru trains from Bellevue access the ex Conrail line?Ed
Ed, I certainly look forward to the informed replies you get to this post, I've been wondering much the same thing for a while now. It looks as though the former NKP east of Cleveland has declined in use, based only on sattelite maps.
The following map will likely answer your first question, as far as how trains from Bellevue are transitioning to the water level route
http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=41.41206,-82.37854&z=15&t=ML&marker0=40.78800%2C-82.73700%2CCrestline%20OH
The Ford plant shut in 2005 and the US Steel plant is mostly shuttered. Part of it is a tube mill but it employs less than 800 people.
The connection is west of Vermillion. I didnt go far enough to find it. Thanks for the link.
It will be interesting to hear from the locals to see what movements there are on the former NKP line.
Ed
For westbounds, the connection is at Oak Harbor. You can also depart Bellevue westbound and use connection to get to Chicago Line at Sandusky.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
MP173It will be interesting to hear from the locals to see what movements there are on the former NKP line.
As of Wednesday, there were plenty of trains transiting both Geneva (about 30 miles east of Cleveland) and Erie, Pennsylvania (a few miles east of Conneaut). In fact I saw two that appeared to be moving considerably faster than I remember NS running on the ex-NKP. This independent of the fairly many trains, including many with CP power, operating in the same places on the parallel ex-Water Level Route.
During a few days in early August I logged an average of 12.5 trains per day (37 trains in 71 hours) on the Erie-PA area webcam that shows the ex-NKP. About half were manifest and a bit more than one-third were intermodal. There were a few auto trains too, although autoracks are more and more showing up in non-unit trains (and not just on NS). One of the daily intermodals was a long single-level container train. There was also a big DPU stack/piggyback train that carried a block of autoracks.
The adjacent CSX ex-NYC averaged 37.2 freights and two Amtraks per day during the same period.
I believe that the ex-NKP tracks just west of Cleveland through Lakewood are very lightly used, but still intact. Maybe a half-dozen trains per day?
- Ed Kyle
One would think that Moberly-Lafayette-Bellvue would make an appealing bypass around Chicago, but I guess if you are a western class 1, the cost outweighs the benefit.
Convicted OneOne would think that Moberly-Lafayette-Bellvue would make an appealing bypass around Chicago, but I guess if you are a western class 1, the cost outweighs the benefit.
It isn't cost - it is loss of interline revenue!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDIt isn't cost - it is loss of interline revenue!
The loss of revenue due to "short hauling" themselves was the cost I was referring to.
Ed KyleI believe that the ex-NKP tracks just west of Cleveland through Lakewood are very lightly used, but still intact. Maybe a half-dozen trains per day?
Ed,
Any idea how many trains are routed through East Cleveland?
Is that line still double-tracked or is it single track?
NKP guy Ed Kyle I believe that the ex-NKP tracks just west of Cleveland through Lakewood are very lightly used, but still intact. Maybe a half-dozen trains per day? Ed, Any idea how many trains are routed through East Cleveland? Is that line still double-tracked or is it single track?
Ed Kyle I believe that the ex-NKP tracks just west of Cleveland through Lakewood are very lightly used, but still intact. Maybe a half-dozen trains per day?
I believe that it is roughly a dozen per day on the ex-NKP east of downtown. There are two tracks as it runs through the Case Western campus area (alongside the busy CSX main and the Red Line electric train line, making six tracks altogether there hosting many trains) and East Cleveland, but the track slims to single track just south of Euclid.
This thread gives me an idea. I think it would be very interesting to see Trains magazine write an indepth article along the lines of "Conrail, 20 years after: the winners, the losers, and the wish you were heres" Outlining the collateral affects of the split.
Convicted One Ed, I certainly look forward to the informed replies you get to this post, I've been wondering much the same thing for a while now. It looks as though the former NKP east of Cleveland has declined in use, based only on sattelite maps. The following map will likely answer your first question, as far as how trains from Bellevue are transitioning to the water level route http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=41.41206,-82.37854&z=15&t=ML&marker0=40.78800%2C-82.73700%2CCrestline%20OH
NS has also recently completed an additional connector track at this location, just west of the connector built in 1999. The new connector (not visible on Google yet, but I see it on Apple maps) allows, for example, eastbound trains to switch from the ex-NYC to the ex-NKP (and vice-versa, of course). The final arrangement acts like a giant set of crossovers. This is suppose to increase train counts by a handful on the ex-NKP west of Cleveland.
Back in the day when Conrail was split, I had the pleasure of working on upgrades on what would be the CSX line through Cleveland. Working westward through Cleveland, NS followed the lake shore while CSX upgraded the line known as the Cleveland Short Line from Quaker with a flyover connection toward the south. The CSL was upgraded to mostly double track except for one tunnel under (If i recall correctly) the Nickel Plate. The CSL and Conrail mains rejoined at Berea where CSX and NS trains had to cross at grade. There was a later adjustment/agreement between CSX and NS to change the traffic flow at Berea to minimize conflicts there.
I realize your question was about NS from Bellevue, but this may shed light on the big picture in Cleveland.
sigengrbut this may shed light on the big picture in Cleveland.
Separate, but related: What rough percentage of Chicago bound traffic from Pittsburgh routes throughPittsburgh-Rochester-Yellow Creek-Alliance versus Pittsburgh-Rochester-New Brighton-Alliance?
I don't know of any merchandise or intermodal trains that move via Yellow Creek.
oltmanndI don't know of any merchandise or intermodal trains that move via Yellow Creek.
Okay, thanks.
The reason why I asked is that my records show that the "Cleveland Line" comes down south out of the Dearborn division, passes through Alliance, Yellow Creek, and then terminates in Rochester, while I believe it is the "Fort Wayne Line" that travels north from Pittsburgh, through Rochester (junctioning with the Clevelandline in Rochester) before turning west into Alliance (again junctioning with the Cleveland line, but in Alliance).
So I was just wondering if the plural lines between Rochester and Alliance served a particular purpose, such as directional running, or whatnot.
Convicted One oltmannd I don't know of any merchandise or intermodal trains that move via Yellow Creek. Okay, thanks. The reason why I asked is that my records show that the "Cleveland Line" comes down south out of the Dearborn division, passes through Alliance, Yellow Creek, and then terminates in Rochester, while I believe it is the "Fort Wayne Line" that travels north from Pittsburgh, through Rochester (junctioning with the Clevelandline in Rochester) before turning west into Alliance (again junctioning with the Cleveland line, but in Alliance). So I was just wondering if the plural lines between Rochester and Alliance served a particular purpose, such as directional running, or whatnot.
oltmannd I don't know of any merchandise or intermodal trains that move via Yellow Creek.
Not sure if NS has renamed anything, but Cleveland line is between Alliance and Cleveland. Ft. Wayne is from Crestline thru Alliance to Conway (Rochester). South of Alliance to Bayard was Bayard branch - all the way to Yellow Creek? Not sure...
The Bayard branch was typically used for ore trains from Whiskey Island in Cleveland. The Bayard branch was manual block and generally 25 mph.
I suppose that it could be my records that are out of date, but I have a 2008 NS employee timetable that lists milepost 0.0 on the Cleveland line as being Rochester, Yellow Creek MP 25.3, Bayard MP54.4, Alliance MP 66.9 (junction with FT Wayne line)
But I believe you as far as the traffic routing is concerned...it just seemed noteworthy to me that the Cleveland line was listed as all the way down to Rochester, made me wonder if it actually had a specific role related to Cleveland.
Hey, if I were routing trains between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, my first choice would be the Ft Wayne Line to Alliance....again it was just the name that made me wonder about the other route
Thanks again
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