Some how cannot believe that another water main may have caused another derailment although minor. Other sites have hinted that when light rail was build above the tunnel the water mains and other services were not refurbished and replaced ? If so their bad !
blue streak 1Some how cannot believe that another water main may have caused another derailment although minor. Other sites have hinted that when light rail was build above the tunnel the water mains and other services were not refurbished and replaced ? If so their bad !
Baltimore's water infrastructure in the downtown areas dates from the 19th Century in many locations and from the early 20th Century in others.
There are a number of utilities beneath the ground in this area - water mains are only one of the utilities - steam lines - electric line - subway tunnels - railroad tunnels with the light rail operating on the surface. A lot of engineering expertise will be required in developing and implementing a fix that will last.
It is being reported that a segment of light rail as well as a light rail station have fallen into the chasam created by the water main break. Debris generated by the water main break has worked its way to the Inner Harbor and has clouded the waters there with mud.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I wonder whether the water mains are having cathodic issues from light rail ground currents causing failures. At the electric utility where I worked, the high voltage underground pipe cables had special cathodic protection systems to prevent the stray currents from traction systems (street railways, gone, and rapid transit still) eating away the steel and causing the insulating oil to leak.
Electroliner 1935I wonder whether the water mains are having cathodic issues from light rail ground currents causing failures. At the electric utility where I worked, the high voltage underground pipe cables had special cathodic protection systems to prevent the stray currents from traction systems (street railways, gone, and rapid transit still) eating away the steel and causing the insulating oil to leak.
This is the same general area where the water main broke in the 2001 Howard Street tunnel fire (this is also where I lost respect for NTSB investigations). Cars ahead of the derailed cars that caught fire were pulled out of the East End of the tunnel with significant quantities of mud and tunnel lining bricks on the ROOF of the cars. NTSB agreed with the City of Baltimore that the derailment caused the water main break - not vice versa with the evidence existing on the TOPS of the underailed cars. NTSB based their reasoning on the drop in the level of the resevoir that supplied the water main not dropping precipetiously until an hour or more after the derailment was reported. Watch - when water 'breaks containment' it does not start at maximum flow rates - the moving water creates erosion which then permits flows a increasingly higher rates.
Video of a partial dam failure account 'running water' at the Oroville Dam in California.
Last summer (I think) there was a Steam Line explosion in the same general area. The area was shut down for a week or more account asbestos clean up from the steam lines thermal jacketing.
This area of Baltimore is susceptable to multiple utility failures - with each failure affecting all the other utilities.
As of this evening's 6 PM New - there was no estimate from the Baltimore City Public Works Department of when they expect to have the situation repaired and traffic in the area back to normal with light rail operation restored between its end points of Baltimore-Washington International Airport to the South and Hunt Valley to the North. Complicating traffic issues is that the Baltimore Orioles are returning from the All Star Game break with a home stand - Oriole Park at Camden Yards is affected by the detours.
(waiting for the latest excuse as to why the city utilities did not cause this derailment either)
Maybe NTSB and the city change their tune after the next fail? (Balt, you are hardly alone here .... and sadly, the problem extends to beyond Baltimore)
mudchicken(waiting for the latest excuse as to why the city utilities did not cause this derailment either) Maybe NTSB and the city change their tune after the next fail? (Balt, you are hardly alone here .... and sadly, the problem extends to beyond Baltimore)
Every city has underground utilities - once the utilities are out of sight they are out of mind when it comes to maintenance - nothing gets better as it gets older, everything deteriorates. Ignore at your own peril.
Don't know about Baltimore, but the design manual specifications for the Phoenix light rail "Valley Metro" system essentially requires replacement and casing around any underground utility under or near the trackbed and stations. Since almost all of the light rail lines are in the streets, often that results in a curb-to-curb replacement of the utility, or for the entire length that it's parallel to the track. That adds a significant amount of complexity and hence cost and time to the project.
So in theory at least the added weight of the LRVs should not impact the UG utility. Also true as a practical matter - the weight of the LRV is spread out so much by the rails and concrete-encased track that the bearing pressure on the subgrade is only a fraction of what it would be from a fully loaded tractor-trailer on the adjoining pavement.
But without that type of robust construction, a LRV could well impact an UG utility that's buried not too far down.
- PDN.
Paul_D_North_JrDon't know about Baltimore, but the design manual specifications for the Phoenix light rail "Valley Metro" system essentially requires replacement and casing around any underground utility under or near the trackbed and stations. Since almost all of the light rail lines are in the streets, often that results in a curb-to-curb replacement of the utility, or for the entire length that it's parallel to the track. That adds a significant amount of complexity and hence cost and time to the project. So in theory at least the added weight of the LRVs should not impact the UG utility. Also true as a practical matter - the weight of the LRV is spread out so much by the rails and concrete-encased track that the bearing pressure on the subgrade is only a fraction of what it would be from a fully loaded tractor-trailer on the adjoining pavement. But without that type of robust construction, a LRV could well impact an UG utility that's buried not too far down. - PDN.
Baltimore's UG utilities are that aincent - I suspect they were probably 'armored' when light rail was built, but I suspect the armored the existing pipes to hold down costs rather than installing NEW armored pipes.
As I recall the Baltimore Light Rail was put in operation in a very short amount of time from the time it was proposed and signed off by the various government agencies to begin construction. I do not have the exact dates.
BaltACD blue streak 1 Some how cannot believe that another water main may have caused another derailment although minor. Other sites have hinted that when light rail was build above the tunnel the water mains and other services were not refurbished and replaced ? If so their bad ! Baltimore's water infrastructure in the downtown areas dates from the 19th Century in many locations and from the early 20th Century in others. There are a number of utilities beneath the ground in this area - water mains are only one of the utilities - steam lines - electric line - subway tunnels - railroad tunnels with the light rail operating on the surface. A lot of engineering expertise will be required in developing and implementing a fix that will last. It is being reported that a segment of light rail as well as a light rail station have fallen into the chasam created by the water main break. Debris generated by the water main break has worked its way to the Inner Harbor and has clouded the waters there with mud.
blue streak 1 Some how cannot believe that another water main may have caused another derailment although minor. Other sites have hinted that when light rail was build above the tunnel the water mains and other services were not refurbished and replaced ? If so their bad !
When we lived in Maryland (1992-1997), we lived about halfway between DC and Baltimore. Every spring when the ground thawed Baltimore had a bunch of water main breaks. Don't know from firsthand experience, but from what we heard on TV it sure seemed like Baltimore's water and sewer infrastructure was in pretty bad shape.
What I mentioned previously is the effect of stray DC currents causing cathodic eating away of metals in other underground utility pipes and/or cables. If the traction power finds the pipes/cables an easier route back to the substation than the rails and any return conductors installed by the rail power system, it can eat away the thickness to where they may fail. It takes time but it is a known problem. But as has been mentioned for PSR, loss of institutional knowledge opens companys to fail to consider failure modes that had been known. Baltimore's Light rail opened in 1992, twentyseven years ago and I wonder whether any cathotic protection was considered for the other utilities.
Water pipes in cities such as Baltimore most likely are cast iron. That type pipe is very unforgiving of bending loads. If the light rail did not replace the cast iron with CL 9000 or steel pipes the potential of more breaks is very high.
blue streak 1Water pipes in cities such as Baltimore most likely are cast iron.
In dry SoCal my suburban neighborhood was built about 1950 and has cast iron water mains. A few years ago the one in front burst in several places and was replaced by plastic (ABS?) pipe; hopefully it will last longer.
Newer gas mains are being replaced by plastic also. Too bad the residential building codes have been held back by @#*& plumbers unions and trade supplier influence just like they did to PEX for water supply piping. Earthquake forces will rack flexible wood frame buildings and break some iron pipe joints; hope my current residence holds up during The Next Big One.
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blue streak 1Water pipes in cities such as Baltimore most likely are cast iron. That type pipe is very unforgiving of bending loads. If the light rail did not replace the cast iron with CL 9000 or steel pipes the potential of more breaks is very high.
Considering that many of the utilities in downtown Baltimore date from the late 19th Century and very early 20th Century - I suspect some of the pipes may be wrought iron - not cast iron.
BaltACDwrought iron - not cast iron.
Wood wouldn't surprise me in some of these old cities...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACDI suspect some of the pipes may be wrought iron - not cast iron.
tree68 BaltACD wrought iron - not cast iron. Wood wouldn't surprise me in some of these old cities...
BaltACD wrought iron - not cast iron.
In Cincinnati - 12" hollowed oak logs from the civil war era still appear after failing (in-service) along the waterfront.
In Denver and Pueblo, Cable-stayed timber pipes of 18" or larger are still out there in service. (Look like redwood 2x6's with cable steel bands coated in a thick layer of pitch tar on the outside. When they fail, it's pretty dramatic.)
And then there are the miles of vitrified clay pipe (orangeburg) in small towns everywhere out here in sewers, water mains and irrigation lines.
The wise old men who knew were all this stuff was have long since left the building.
My neighborhood is full of newer patches of asphault where they have replaced the clay pipe transitions to the sewer laterials. At least we didn't get lead supply lines.
VC pipe and Orangeburg pipe are not the same thing as your text seems to imply. Orangeburg was a fiber product inbeded in an asphalt tar and shaped into a pipe.. Terrible product but used for close to 100 years. Ruined my workday every time we came across it.
comments. Orangeburg pipe is a fiber type pipe but is found to have roots growing into a sewer stream. Asbesdos type pipe ( Transite ) is also brittle and not istalled new any where. Our city is replacing it with regular PVC or CL 9000, Ductile iron pipe is oftenspoken interchangeablly with steel pipe and often used on bridges and anywhere subsistence might occurr. Advantages of PC, CL 9000 and DIP pipe is the bell length can be specified any distance. The male seals on this type of pipes is some kind of Neopreme guaranteed 500 years. Understand some of this type in California water pipes have bells up to 3 feet to allow earthquake continuity wth sections moving back and forth .
Do not get me started on orangeburg pipe. We had to have our entire house floors jackhammered we live in a slab floored house a prefab built in the late 40's. Why the sewer line below grade from the underside of the house were everthing tied into it to the sewer connection was orangeburg. To say the cost was expensive was putting it mildly. But we put Schedule 80 PVC under the house and should never have to worry about anything happening to it ever. Yes I over built the drains same with my water supply lines I redid at the same time as the sewer lines all were replaced from 1/2 inch inside the house to 3/4 inch fittings. What can I say I love my water pressure when I take a shower. With a couple tricks my late father showed me how to defeat water savers in the shower heads I get poured on and clean.
Shadow the Cats ownerBut we put Schedule 80 PVC under the house and should never have to worry about anything happening to it ever. Yes I over built the drains...
PVC is not exactly 'overbuilding' -- it has some of the same issues as Orangeburg if you have to snake it with any particular 'authority'. Overbuilding would be something like ductile iron.
... same with my water supply lines I redid at the same time as the sewer lines all were replaced from 1/2 inch inside the house to 3/4 inch fittings. What can I say I love my water pressure when I take a shower.
There is no substitute for 3/4" ... but the effect isn't as much 'water pressure' as the internal resistance in the smaller pipe, which is more considerable than most people think. (I have an amusing cautionary tale about trusting innovative water-fitting manufacturers on this general topic.) Technically you can achieve much the same 'flow rate' with a good booster (which is SURE the answer for a good powerful shower!) but you run into a much more serious issue if you do that 'whole house' instead of right at the point of use as many installs do ...
With a couple tricks my late father showed me how to defeat water savers in the shower heads I get poured on and clean.
Now, I tend to be one with Buckminster Fuller and say that high spray pressure is infinitely preferable to pouring more water -- in fact we both like high-pressure 'fog' showers that cut grease at very small volumetric quantity, whether followed by a high-volume 'rinse' or not. But I've had reasonable success in achieving both good spray pattern and reasonable coverage out of 'restricted flow' showerheads, albeit not using the standard California-approved idiot flow restrictors (I don't like restrictor plates elsewhere, either, but I don't know Bill French et al. well enough to fix that) and I would argue that you can get sprayed on and clean at least as well as poured on at high volume.
But this is America, and if showers are a substantial 'waste' it simply means that the "government" involving itself needs to be more attentive to greywater recovery and use... at its expense. (I'm all for typical 'socialism' when it comes to paying for unfunded mandates!)
Overmod...but the effect isn't as much 'water pressure' as the internal resistance in the smaller pipe,...
In the fire service, we call it friction loss, and it's a very big deal. Classes for pump operators are big on calculating friction loss.
Our engine carries four different sizes of hose - 1" for forestry, 1.75" for fire attack, 3" for both big fire attack and water supply, and 5" for water supply.
The 1.75" requires a pump pressure of 170PSI to see 100PSI with adequate flow at the end of a 200' long line. The 5" can flow over 1000 gallons per minute for over 8,000 feet without a boost along the way.
When I put in a new shower, I noticed the opening in the control head didn't look all that big - I continually wish I'd drilled it out larger... Then, again, I'm on a well and I'm not sure the pump would keep up.
Today November 29, 2021 - Maryland Gov. Hogan announced the start of the clearance project to allow CSX to handle double stack containers on the I-95 corridor through Baltimore.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/an-absolute-game-changer-hogan-and-transportation-officials-break-ground-on-howard-street-tunnel-expansion-project/ar-AARgNSL?cvid=1b63565ac130493cd1707803bf2dadf5&ocid=winp1taskbar
Will the projects allow double-stacks to go all the way to Phily? All the articles I see just talk about double stacks to Baltimore harbor.
MidlandMikeWill the projects allow double-stacks to go all the way to Phily? All the articles I see just talk about double stacks to Baltimore harbor.
I have seen and heard there are committments from Pennsylvania to attack 21 clearance issues on the CSX I-95 corridor in concert with the Howard Street Tunnel project.
Baltimore media will focus all their energy on Baltimore, but projects to Philadelphia are in the 'Big Picture'.
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