Heavyweight Passenger Cars

[gabe]

I read Mark's recent Trains article concerning CP's excellent passenger train. (Given that I am at a point in my life where I have to chose between a low-paying career doing highly rewarding work that I truly believe in v. an obscenely high-paying career doing work that I don't care about or believe in, it wasn't a good time to read that article—how I would like to spend my next vacation in Canada on this train).

Anyway, the article got me thinking about heavyweight passenger cars. What makes a heavyweight passenger car a heavyweight passenger car and what are its benefits? Are they simply weighted with ballast? Why did they stop making them? When did they stop making them? I know NS frowned on them after an excursion derailment—I assume they jackknife more easily?

I assume heavyweight passenger cars give a smoother ride because their heavy weight allows greater suspension capabilities—as its cargo makes up a very small percentage of its total weight and the suspension can be set accordingly.

Gabe

P.S. As an oenophile, does anyone happen to know if this CP train serves decent wines (which directly means “red” wine unless you are a soccer mom seeking to lubricate proclivities for sanity healing fantasies)? Fine dinning without fine wine is like the Bulls without Jordan to me.

[gabe]

Oh, I would much rather have the train trip--unless it were a cruise on the Queen Mary II. I don't do cruises for the reason you suggested. However, the Queen Mary II is in a category all of her own.

Now, if I can only save long enough without spending my savings. I hope they still run the train by the time I am saved up.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Mark, and everyone,
Permit to speak from my passenger cottage (studio) on the last year heavyweights were built. According to dave Randall's excellent Pullman Libray the last heavyweights came out of Pullman's shop in 1937.

In 1966 a bunch of us rode from Chicgo to Mexico City on the Illini Railfan Club's private car "Chief Illini." This was the 10 section, lounge observation built as the "Inglehome" and used in service on the Frisco.
I had a lower berth and the ride was amazing. You couldn't feel anything but forward motion. I would rather have a heavyweight lower berth than a roomette.

Mitch

[daveklepper]

I also rode the Chief Illini when Mauri Kliebolt owned it and it rode well. But even better were some of the other heavyweights in private car service, particularly Lehigh Valley 353, which was always kept in top condition by that true aristocrat in the best sense of the word, Steve Horstmann. (I hope I got that spelling right.) I did not have a high paying job, but I sure saved my pennies so I could be one his "expense sharers" and the service was similar to what Mark enjoyed on the Royal Canadian. The best trip was one from Seattle to New York via Salt Lake City and Denver. As a youngster, I rode in the classic 12 section one drawing room Pullmans and they rode beautifully also. And they were quiet. In the early 60's the New Haven put one on the "Owl" as the "Dollar Saver Sleeper" and got some use out of a pair. All this equipment had been air conditioned, first with ice and air blowers, then mechaincal means, probably before I was born in 1932. Interestingly enough, the first really light-weight passenger equipment did not have to wait until streamlining. The first lightweights were the Stillwell designed coaches, where the body became a part of the structure in every sense. (1905!) The Erie had gobs of them for both suburban and long distance service (different designs and trucks), and the same design principles were applied to the first BMT steel subway cars, the Hudson and Manhattan "black cars" (which were light enough to be tried out in revenue service on the 2nd Avenue elevated before the "Tubes" were opened), the New York Westchester and Boston suburban mu's (demotered and in New Haven's Boston suburban service, wiping out the wood open-platform fleet completely before WWII), the interurban motor cars for the London and Port Stanley. I always wondered why more railroads didn't use the design, but it was more expensive to build, possibly, than a Pennsy P-70 (4-wheel trucks), the standard coach which possibly the next lightest pre-streamlined car, and which had a reasonable ride on good track, but awful on anything less. The Stillwells often had something like a modified arch-bar 4-wheel truck but rode better than the P-70's, that is for sure. Some railroads, like the C&O, used pretty much the same construction for coaches as Pullman did for its cars, 6-wheel trucks and all, and they rode very well. And were heavy. Some of the last classic 6-wheel heavyweights in service were the GM&O diners on the Chicago - St. Louis run, and Pennsy Parlor cars that kept running in early Amtrak service in the corridor. The UP full-length dome diners had six wheel trucks and so did other full-length dome cars.

[daveklepper]

You are right. But then the standard ACF dome was longer then the typical Budd dome, maybe twice as long. The SP had similar domes, not as diners, but as lounge cars, for the Shasta Daylight. You sharpened my memory and I can state as a fact that the UP dome diners had domes about twice as long as a standard Budd dome. I also rode the Shasta Daylight's dome.

[espeefoamer]

SP had 3/4 length dome lounge cars which rode on 4 wheel trucks.

[daveklepper]

But the UP diners had 6-wheel trucks if my memory is correct. Also, some "lightweight" non-dome diners had 6-wheel trucks. Didn't the Super Chief postwar diners with Turquois Rooms have 6-wheel trucks?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

You are right. But then the standard ACF dome was longer then the typical Budd dome, maybe twice as long. The SP had similar domes, not as diners, but as lounge cars, for the Shasta Daylight. You sharpened my memory and I can state as a fact that the UP dome diners had domes about twice as long as a standard Budd dome. I also rode the Shasta Daylight's dome.

Dave and passengers aboard the thread,
I'm looking at some UP dome-diner pics right now and their dome is exactly the same length as a Burlington dome. Six windows. The UP dome diners don't show anything but 4 wheel trucks. But you maybe thinking of the Santa Fe El Cap diners that had 6 wheel trucks and rode well.
The SP home-brew domes were in between a full length and a shorty dome.

Mitch

[espeefoamer]

The UP dome diners rode on 4 wheel trucks,as did the Super Chief diners. The high level El Capitan diners rode on 6 wheel trucks.

[daveklepper]

I stand corrected. But eating in the UP dome was still a great experience even if I didn't remember the design accurately. And they rode well and were quiet. And Yes I did also eat in El Cap high level diners. Did the El Cap lounge cars also have 6-wheel trucks? Or was it a diner-lounge, like if I remember correctly Amtrak had them used?

[Anonymous]

And--irony of ironies--they weighed in heavier than a heavyweight, as did some of the other "lightweights".[:D]

[jeaton]

Just finished the article. When on the IC, I was able to make several trips on office cars. The IC had at least 3 cars and the last one built was streamlined. At first it was for the exclusive use by IC President Wayne Johnston, but in later times, it could be ordered out by VP's. (My trips were strictly as an assignment). Others may have been so equiped, but that car had an engine to generate power for lights and air condition and could be on a freight train.

I don't recall much of ride quality, but the on board service was provided by the best from the railroad's cook/steward/porter roster. On the return of leg a productive trip, sip on a cocktail, engage in bright conversation, watch the tracks fade away at 80 MPH, but be careful because you might start think you are really important.

I'm going to get some white out and cover the train parts, but leave the stuff on food, wine, service and scenery and I just might be able to convince the wife that it would be an fun vacation.

Jay

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe


P.S. As an oenophile, does anyone happen to know if this CP train serves decent wines (which directly means “red” wine unless you are a soccer mom seeking to lubricate proclivities for sanity healing fantasies)? Fine dinning without fine wine is like the Bulls without Jordan to me.

[#offtopic]
Gabe why does wine need to be red in order for it to be decent? I'm certainly not a soccer mom but I do love a glass of white wine. I try to match my wine with my food. White wine has some excellent food pairings. One of my favorites is a Sauvignon Blanc or a dry Riesling with some spicy food.

BTW - just received my copy (I changed my address twice in the last month). Mark I do plan on reading that one. One of my goals before I die is to ride in the Canadian Rockies.

[PwdOpd]

I have read with interest the comments concerning "heavyweights" vs "lightweights" as to which rode the best or whether they had 4 wheel or 6 wheel trucks, and I would like to interject a thought that has not been mentioned. Just wondering if perhaps the roadbed might have something to do with the quality of the ride? I remember taking a trip from Aberdeen S.D. to Dayton, Ohio and the ride was something like this. Good, very good, and bad, very bad. Used the Morning Hiawatha from Minneapolis to
Chicago and rode in full length dome car (lightweight)-beautiful scenery and the smoothest ride ever experienced. From Chicago to Dayton, it was on the Pennsy, in a heavyweight coach, and it was the roughest ride I ever experienced. Don't really think it had a lot to do with the riding qualities of the cars as much as the quality of the track and roadbed. Just a thought. Paul

[passengerfan]

Having experienced rides in both heavyweights and lightweights one thing overlooked that contributed to ride was the couplings. The heavyweights lacked the tightlocks found on the vast majority of lighweights so their was always some banging if the engineer was not good at brake applications and starting the trains. Great Northern owned some of the last heavyweight coaches constructed in 1937 they resembled streamlined cars by their roof lines and car ends but rode on six wheel trucks. The cars also were of riveted construction but the windows were sealed and flush with the car sides. These cars were not retired until 1967 and 1968. Had the occasion to ride several of them on numerous occasions and found them to be comfortable riding. The best coach ride I ever had was on the Hi-Level El Capitan from Kansas City to Los Angeles and found sleeping was no problem or maybe at that time in my life I could sleep standing up. I have ridden in every type sleeping car accommodation Pullman offered except for the Master room and found the roominess of the Double Bedroom for one unbeatable. The Drawing Room of a Park Dome Observation on the CP was unforgetable especially when traveling with wife and young daughter across Canada. As for the mention of wines one needs to remember that the tradition of fine wines goes back a long ways with Canadian Pacific. At one time they operared world class hotels from one end of Canada to the other as well as the Empress liners between Canada's east coast and Europe and prior to WW II Empress Liners served the Pacific from Vancouver to the Orient. The CPR trained their own chefs and their hotels like the Royal York stocked some of the world's truly great wines. I was once told that vintage wines do not travel well on trains I don't know this to be true or not but the gentleman who passed this information to me was a Wine expert for the Province of Ontario LCBO who purchased world class wines for them about twenty-five years ago, something about the sediment being unable to remain settled against the side of the bottle when stored on a train in the proper fashion on their sides.

[ericsp]

Would this be considered a 3/4 length dome of a full length dome? Obviously it is somewhere in between. http://home.att.net/~cz20/11.jpg

How many domes did SP have and what trains were they on? I have heard conflicting information.

Here is something that might be of interest. http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=20132

[passengerfan]

To EricSP
The SP rebuilt a total of seven 3/4 length domes from older lightweight streamlined cars. The first of these was outshopped by Sacramento shops in July 1954 and numbered 3600. It was originally Daylight Parlor Observation 2950 dating to the first streamlined Daylight of March 1937.
The second SP 3/4 lenght dome 3601 was outshopped in March 1955 rebuilt from Texas & New Orleans lightweight streamlined Parlor car 700 built for the September 1937 Sunbeam.
The other five 3/4 domes were completed in April and May 1955 as follows:
April 1955
3602 originally one of the 24-seat Lunch Counter 18-seat Tavern Lounge car of the first Daylights number 10311
3603 originally one of the 24-seat Lunch Counter 18-seat Tavern Lounge car of the first
Daylights number 10310
3606 originally one of the Dining Lounge Observations from the Texas & New Orleans Sunbeam /Hustler of 1937.
May 1955
3604 originally Daylight Parlor car 3000 of 1937
3605 originally Daylight Tavern Car 10312 dating to the Daylight trains of March 1940.

Originally 3600 and 3604 were assigned to the San Joaquin Daylight painted in full Daylight colors.
3605 and 3606 were initially assigned to the Shasta Daylight and also painted in full Daylight dress later assigned to the Coast Daylight after Shasta Daylight discontinued.
3601 - 3603 were assigned to operate between Oakland and Ogden in the San Francisco Overland initially later assigned to the City of San Francisco between the same points and painted in UP streamliner colors.
The bar itself was located at the standard height end of the car and on the lower level under the dome was a lounge seating twenty the one climbed the five steps to the raised dome level itself and their were four tables for four providing additional lounge space and the remainder of the dome level was angled comfortable sofa like seating that seated two for atotal of 36 eighteen on either side of the center aisle. Budd provided the dome arrangement to Sacramento shops based on their full length dome lounge cars built for the AT&SF and GN-CB&Q. Hope this answers your questions on the SP domes. By the way one of the former SP 3/4 domes is now in service on the Panama Railway operating a round trip transcontinental service daily.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by talbanese

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe


P.S. As an oenophile, does anyone happen to know if this CP train serves decent wines (which directly means “red” wine unless you are a soccer mom seeking to lubricate proclivities for sanity healing fantasies)? Fine dinning without fine wine is like the Bulls without Jordan to me.

[#offtopic]
Gabe why does wine need to be red in order for it to be decent? I'm certainly not a soccer mom but I do love a glass of white wine. I try to match my wine with my food. White wine has some excellent food pairings. One of my favorites is a Sauvignon Blanc or a dry Riesling with some spicy food.

BTW - just received my copy (I changed my address twice in the last month). Mark I do plan on reading that one. One of my goals before I die is to ride in the Canadian Rockies.

Sorry, I wasn't really serious. Actually the soccer mom bit was taken from Jim Harrison off my wine calendar (with the most humorous part deleted for “semi-mature” content). The red v. white thing is simply an oenophile's version of tastes great/less filling. I am a big fan of red wine and think my life is too short to waste it on white. My top uses for white wine are French Onion Soup and Risotto. But, I realize that is just my opinion, and I am not really claiming some sort of superior sophistication. My friends give me a hard time about my opinion and more often than not agree with your position.

Passngerfan:

You raise a good point as far as wine is concerned. I can see the constant rocking motion as really disrupting any wines over 4-6 years old. There are a lot of wines that drink well young, I guess passenger trains need to limit the bottles to recent vintages. But, then again, all wine has to travel; maybe it isn't that terrible on them as long as they are stored off the train until the actual trip.

Gabe

[daveklepper]

The IC had a smooth roadbed in the early 60's, and sleep was easy and the dining car road very steadily. Things didn't stay that way, unfortunately, but by then the Kings Dinner was gone, and the Panama ran with the Magnolia Star, the coach section of the same train. Did anyone know that the New Haven had six-wheel truck heavyweights in suburban service out of Boston? When the post-war fluted side lightweights came from Pullman's Worcester plant around 1948 and 1949, in addition to coaches, diners, and grille cars, there were included parlor cars, even about six parlor -baggage combines. These cars replaced the heavyweight parlors that had run with the prewar lightweight coaches (Pullman-Worcester 1934-1937, "American Flyers") through WWII. These heavyweight parlors had been maintained well and had air-conditioning. So the New Haven replaced the parlor seating with suburban coach seating and put them in Old Colony suburban service, largely replacing the ex-NYW&B demotored mu cars. Anyone know of any other suburban service that used six-wheel truck heavyweights?

[passengerfan]

In 1955 for my birthday my parents asked a young lad what he would like. It certainly wasn't what they were expecting. I asked to ride the Cascadian from Seattle to Spokane and return on the Western Star overnight. After checking with the GN and getting the fares my dad reluctantly agreed to letr me make the trip on my own. To my great delight a heavyweight dining lounge Obs. was substitute for the regular car on the April friday of my trip. The weather was quite chilly crossing the Cascades but nothing was goiung to keep the young lad off the Open Platform even if it would have meant frostbite. The crew toolerated me and when the electric took over I was asked to come in while the train passed through Cascade tunnel but otherwise left alone on the platform. It wasn't until I reached Spokane and was escorted to the Station agent that I learned my return space wasn't in coach but a duplex roomette, my first experience with a sleeping car on my own. I believe that after having dinner in the station with the station agent they brought the sleeping car to the station or it may have already been their hooked to the station steam supply awaiting the Westbound Western Star later that night. I don't remember what time they permitted me to board and go to my room but I don't remember much after my head hit the pillow until a porter was letting me know that Seattle was thirty minutes away. I dressed and arrived in Seattle to anxious parents glad my trip was over with the shiniest pair of shoes I had ever owned. I can still relive the trip today as if it was yesterday. To think I rode a heavyweight open platform observation will never be forgotten or the change to electric and back to diesel through the Cascades was memorable. The next trip I made through Cascade tunnel several years later was all diesel the electrics were long gone. I remember very little of the return trip in the duplex roomette as i was fast asleep long before the car was ever added to the westbound Western Star. But then I guess that was to be expected almost motionless coupling and quiet comfortable ride that encouraged sleep.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan

To EricSP
The SP rebuilt a total of seven 3/4 length domes from older lightweight streamlined cars. The first of these was outshopped by Sacramento shops in July 1954 and numbered 3600. It was originally Daylight Parlor Observation 2950 dating to the first streamlined Daylight of March 1937.
The second SP 3/4 lenght dome 3601 was outshopped in March 1955 rebuilt from Texas & New Orleans lightweight streamlined Parlor car 700 built for the September 1937 Sunbeam.
The other five 3/4 domes were completed in April and May 1955 as follows:
April 1955
3602 originally one of the 24-seat Lunch Counter 18-seat Tavern Lounge car of the first Daylights number 10311
3603 originally one of the 24-seat Lunch Counter 18-seat Tavern Lounge car of the first
Daylights number 10310
3606 originally one of the Dining Lounge Observations from the Texas & New Orleans Sunbeam /Hustler of 1937.
May 1955
3604 originally Daylight Parlor car 3000 of 1937
3605 originally Daylight Tavern Car 10312 dating to the Daylight trains of March 1940.

Originally 3600 and 3604 were assigned to the San Joaquin Daylight painted in full Daylight colors.
3605 and 3606 were initially assigned to the Shasta Daylight and also painted in full Daylight dress later assigned to the Coast Daylight after Shasta Daylight discontinued.
3601 - 3603 were assigned to operate between Oakland and Ogden in the San Francisco Overland initially later assigned to the City of San Francisco between the same points and painted in UP streamliner colors.
The bar itself was located at the standard height end of the car and on the lower level under the dome was a lounge seating twenty the one climbed the five steps to the raised dome level itself and their were four tables for four providing additional lounge space and the remainder of the dome level was angled comfortable sofa like seating that seated two for atotal of 36 eighteen on either side of the center aisle. Budd provided the dome arrangement to Sacramento shops based on their full length dome lounge cars built for the AT&SF and GN-CB&Q. Hope this answers your questions on the SP domes. By the way one of the former SP 3/4 domes is now in service on the Panama Railway operating a round trip transcontinental service daily.

Thanks

[daveklepper]

I spent plenty of time on the back platform of Richard Horstmann's Lehigh Valley 353 (now at Steamtown), Maurey Kliebolt's Chief Illini, and PRR 120. But most unusual were the Waterloo, Ceder Falls, and Northern heavy wood interurban cars with brass railed back platforms, and I spent a day with one of them in 1952 (with Ray DeGroote and Bill Watson) Waterloo - Cedeer Rapds and return, plus a round trip on the branch line to the north, name of destination not in my memory at this instant.

Also the back platform of gate-car Third Avenue Through Expresses when the full schedule of Third Avenue Elevated was still running when I was a teenager. The ride non-stop from 42nd Street to 106th Street (little over three miles) and 149th to Treemont Avenue brought a teenager a lot of joy. Most of this service was provided by ex-Subway composite cars but there were two regularly scheduled gate-car trains. It was a rush hour only service. Middle reversable direction express track.

Finally, when I rode the Boston and Maine regularly as an MIT student, much of the suburban service was still with wood open platform equipment, and I and my bicycle were freqently on the rear platform.

[passengerfan]

In the late 1960's or early 1970's the CN remodeled a number of old heavyweight Sleeper Lounge Observations into Lounge cars for sleeping car passengers traveling on the Super Continental , Panorama, Ocean ,Scotian and Chaleur. These old heavyweights after rebuilding in CN shops were among the finest modern lounge cars ever to ride the rails. These cars operated next to the diner in the consists and were for the exclusive use of sleeping car passengers only. They rode on six wheel trucks and the windows were all thermopane sealed to keep out the cold and the roofline was streamlined to match the rest of the trains consists The interior lighting was of the tube type and gave a bright look to the lounge area the separate bar lounge area used subdued lighting and at every table was an endless supply of pretzels. They were placed their so passengers would drink more I am convinced. The CN also rebuilt old heavyweights into streamlined tourist sleeping cars that ran for many years on certain transcontinentals such as the Super Continental and Continental. I don't believe these cars survived into the Black and White Paint scheme era, but were painted in the black green Gold scheme.