What would be the operational and financial impacts on CSX if it did not have to host any Amtrak trains?
Or, to put the question another way, how much does it cost CSX directly and indirectly to put up with Amtrak?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Facts that you will NEVER find from either party.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I can think of several cost categories to consider.
1) wear and tear on the physical plant: For a typical daily pair of Amtrak trains it will be minimal on any busy line, compared with the pounding from long heavy freight traffic.
2) delay to CSX's own traffic: A real cost, but pinning it down requires a bunch of arbitrary assumptions. When railroads purposely delay their own freight traffic for internal convenience, they rarely assign the "cost" of so doing. If the line is reaching maximum capacity, or there are multiple passenger trains, the direct cost might be significant, otherwise quite debatable.
3) Management and supervision: Obviously field staff will have to include overseeing Amtrak as part of their responsibility for safe operation of ALL the trains within their territory. It is unlikely that the eliminating a pair of passenger trains will result in any change to CSX management level. There will likely be extra staff to handle the billing process.
4) Emergent issues: Locomotives die on the road, and crews run out of legal hours, and often a host railroad will help out. I believe that type of out-of-pocket cost will be fully covered by Amtrak.
Offsetting the real and theoretical costs, there is an income stream as a result of hosting an Amtrak train. My belief is that it more than covers the immediate costs, but not by enough to compensate for the perceived nuisance. I could be wrong, - I'll await with interest any response by some of the experts here.
John
cx500 I can think of several cost categories to consider. 1) wear and tear on the physical plant: For a typical daily pair of Amtrak trains it will be minimal on any busy line, compared with the pounding from long heavy freight traffic. 2) delay to CSX's own traffic: A real cost, but pinning it down requires a bunch of arbitrary assumptions. When railroads purposely delay their own freight traffic for internal convenience, they rarely assign the "cost" of so doing. If the line is reaching maximum capacity, or there are multiple passenger trains, the direct cost might be significant, otherwise quite debatable. 3) Management and supervision: Obviously field staff will have to include overseeing Amtrak as part of their responsibility for safe operation of ALL the trains within their territory. It is unlikely that the eliminating a pair of passenger trains will result in any change to CSX management level. There will likely be extra staff to handle the billing process. 4) Emergent issues: Locomotives die on the road, and crews run out of legal hours, and often a host railroad will help out. I believe that type of out-of-pocket cost will be fully covered by Amtrak. Offsetting the real and theoretical costs, there is an income stream as a result of hosting an Amtrak train. My belief is that it more than covers the immediate costs, but not by enough to compensate for the perceived nuisance. I could be wrong, - I'll await with interest any response by some of the experts here. John
Your thoughtful comment shows how difficult finding a factual answer would be. "Experts" will likely have their answers colored by POV or agenda.
PJS1 What would be the operational and financial impacts on CSX if it did not have to host any Amtrak trains? Or, to put the question another way, how much does it cost CSX directly and indirectly to put up with Amtrak?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
We shouldn't forget that all participating railroads were relieved of all further obligations to run passenger trains. Not participating required railroads to run all passenger trains for four more years until January 1975 with all the legal uncertainties associated with the ICC abandonment procedure.
Four more years would have meant an additional loss of around $1.8 billion based on 1970's deficit of $450,000.Regards, Volker
cx500) delay to CSX's own traffic:
Any delays are due in large part to the "halo effect" surrounding an Amtrak train. This can be easily seen over the course of a day along the former Water Level Route, which hosts the Lake Shore as well as three regional trains in each direction each day.
The key factor in such situations is not Amtrak in and of itself, it's the differing speeds involved. It's been found that having all trains running the same speed is the best way to run trains. With Amtrak running at 79, I/M running at 60, and manifests running at 50, the dispatcher has a bit of a chess game going.
I'm sure even the mix of I/M and manifest traffic is a bit of a headache...
If Amtrak ran 60, like the IM trains, it might not be quite so bad. Bring Amtrak and the I/M's down to 50, and aside from station stops, everything would be hunky-dory...
And that's on a two track main. Single track is another story...
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Murphy Siding Is that even an option?
Given the current political environment, it probably is not an option. But that was not what I was getting at.
I am more interested in knowing the cost and operational issues.
For example, if CSX has to route a frieght train into a siding so Amtrak can go by either way, is there a significant increment cost in getting the train underway again?
VOLKER LANDWEHR We shouldn't forget that all participating railroads were relieved of all further obligations to run passenger trains. Not participating required railroads to run all passenger trains for four more years until January 1975 with all the legal uncertainties associated with the ICC abandonment procedure. Four more years would have meant an additional loss of around $1.8 billion based on 1970's deficit of $450,000.Regards, Volker
Had Amtrak not been created, we don’t know what would have happened. History does not allow us to run parallel universes. Legal requirements can be changed. But we are where we are, and the decision cannot be unwound.
Amtrak was a political decision. Had it not been created, the railroads would have been successful in discontinuing their passenger operations, especially if they could have shown that they would go belly-up had they not been allowed to do so.
Train delay costs run somewhere in the $200-400 per hour range (depending on train size, crew cost, how many engines, if you are counting engine cost, train type, etc.) Assume $300/hr, that's $5/min, a 30 min delay costs $150 (regardless of whether its Amtrak or a CSX train).
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman Train delay costs run somewhere in the $200-400 per hour range (depending on train size, crew cost, how many engines, if you are counting engine cost, train type, etc.) Assume $300/hr, that's $5/min, a 30 min delay costs $150 (regardless of whether its Amtrak or a CSX train).
This is the sort of specificity that I was seeking. Thanks!
When a freight and passenger train meet and the freight goes in the siding, how do we separate the delays that were caused solely by the Amtrak train's presence from those that have additional reasons?
Like CX500 said, freight trains are often parked for reasons that are not at all related to Amtrak. If one of these low-priority trains is held to allow Amtrak to pass its record will show a Amtrak-caused delay, but in reality the Dispatcher knew it would stop farther down the line anyway and chose to prioritize a train whose schedule actually mattered.
Reasons for these non-Amtrak-related delays include lack of crews, freight yard congestion ahead, and customer requests (maybe the port, coal mine or grain terminal doesn't want their unit train right away). There are many more.
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-an Articulate Malcontent
What constitutes delay?
Best run time over a track segment is 2 hours 30 minutes for freights.
Scheduled running time for the fastest freight is 3 hours 30 mintes.
The scheduled freight meets Amtrak on the run and makes it in 3 hours.
Was the freight train delayed?
PJS1 VOLKER LANDWEHR We shouldn't forget that all participating railroads were relieved of all further obligations to run passenger trains. Not participating required railroads to run all passenger trains for four more years until January 1975 with all the legal uncertainties associated with the ICC abandonment procedure. Four more years would have meant an additional loss of around $1.8 billion based on 1970's deficit of $450,000.Regards, Volker Had Amtrak not been created, we don’t know what would have happened. History does not allow us to run parallel universes. Legal requirements can be changed. But we are where we are, and the decision cannot be unwound. Amtrak was a political decision. Had it not been created, the railroads would have been successful in discontinuing their passenger operations, especially if they could have shown that they would go belly-up had they not been allowed to do so.
Murphy Siding PJS1 VOLKER LANDWEHR We shouldn't forget that all participating railroads were relieved of all further obligations to run passenger trains. Not participating required railroads to run all passenger trains for four more years until January 1975 with all the legal uncertainties associated with the ICC abandonment procedure. Four more years would have meant an additional loss of around $1.8 billion based on 1970's deficit of $450,000.Regards, Volker Had Amtrak not been created, we don’t know what would have happened. History does not allow us to run parallel universes. Legal requirements can be changed. But we are where we are, and the decision cannot be unwound. Amtrak was a political decision. Had it not been created, the railroads would have been successful in discontinuing their passenger operations, especially if they could have shown that they would go belly-up had they not been allowed to do so. I'm confused. You're telling Volker he can't play *what if* because that's a historical thing and that's the way it is. Then you play *what if* on something that can't be done?
I'm confused. You're telling Volker he can't play *what if* because that's a historical thing and that's the way it is. Then you play *what if* on something that can't be done?
Gee, Murp, didn't you know? It's a case of rejecting hypotheticals and "having it your way" ala the old commercial since PJS1 knows, with mathematical precision what would have happened.
charlie hebdoGee, Murp, didn't you know? It's a case of rejecting hypotheticals and "having it your way" ala the old commercial since PJS1 knows, with mathematical precision what would have happened. Wink
Maybe this is another PJS1 from a parallel universe that was able to sneak over here?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Murphy Siding Had Amtrak not been created, we don’t know what would have happened. History does not allow us to run parallel universes. Legal requirements can be changed. But we are where we are, and the decision cannot be unwound. Amtrak was a political decision. Had it not been created, the railroads would have been successful in discontinuing their passenger operations, especially if they could have shown that they would go belly-up had they not been allowed to do so. I'm confused. You're telling Volker he can't play *what if* because that's a historical thing and that's the way it is. Then you play *what if* on something that can't be done?
Given the general attitude about passenger service that the railroads had (once the mail contracts/cash cow were gone) and still apparently have, I'd have to opine that the only way passenger service would exist today would be where it could support dedicated ROWs.
It may well have followed the path of urban mass transit, where we've seen cities that once willingly closed down trolleys, etc, once again embracing those same trolleys.
I seriously doubt you'd see anything resembling the Amtrak we see today.
Outside of urban areas and corridors there would probably be a few tourist/vacation-oriented cruise or excursion trains, along the lines of Durango & Silverton, Grand Canyon, or Rocky Mountaineer.
Would the American Orient Express have done better in a world where it was the only remaining U.S. train with sleeping cars?
It is a shame that combined passenger-intermodal operation never worked in the real world, that could have made up for the loss of mail traffic.
PJS1 Murphy Siding Had Amtrak not been created, we don’t know what would have happened. History does not allow us to run parallel universes. Legal requirements can be changed. But we are where we are, and the decision cannot be unwound. Amtrak was a political decision. Had it not been created, the railroads would have been successful in discontinuing their passenger operations, especially if they could have shown that they would go belly-up had they not been allowed to do so. I'm confused. You're telling Volker he can't play *what if* because that's a historical thing and that's the way it is. Then you play *what if* on something that can't be done? There is a subtle difference. If Amtrak had not been created, knowing the alternative is impossible. However, in the case of the train offs, the trend had been established since the early 1950s. Most of the petitions were successful. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the "trend" would have continued. A fine point to be sure, but there is a difference between hypothesizing a complete unknown as opposed to projecting a well-established trend.
Murphy Siding It may have been easy to get rid of the passenger service from Nowhere SD to Nowhere Iowa for example. But I dount it would have been very easy to drop passnegr service on the NE Corridoor or the Chicago to NY trunk lines. Yes, there was a pattern of passenger trainsbeing eliminated but it doesn't appear like that would have been an absolute certainty.
It may have been easy to get rid of the passenger service from Nowhere SD to Nowhere Iowa for example. But I dount it would have been very easy to drop passnegr service on the NE Corridoor or the Chicago to NY trunk lines. Yes, there was a pattern of passenger trainsbeing eliminated but it doesn't appear like that would have been an absolute certainty.
Wasn't it the Penn Central bankruptcy and their motion to discontinue all of their non-NEC passenger trains that brought things to a head and prompted the very formation of Amtrak?
Murphy Siding I'm confused. You're telling Volker he can't play *what if* because that's a historical thing and that's the way it is. Then you play *what if* on something that can't be done?
I have had a very early morning change of mind. Had Amtrak not been created, we don't know what would have happened for sure. Moreover, it does not matter. We are where we are, and the decision to create Amtrak cannot be unwound.
PJS1 dehusman Train delay costs run somewhere in the $200-400 per hour range (depending on train size, crew cost, how many engines, if you are counting engine cost, train type, etc.) Assume $300/hr, that's $5/min, a 30 min delay costs $150 (regardless of whether its Amtrak or a CSX train). This is the sort of specificity that I was seeking. Thanks!
The cost of train delay is not the same thing as the value of the train-slot consumed by an Amtrak train.
Even the frt RRs get caught up in measuring the cost of things when they should be looking harder at the value of things.
It's a tough thing to figure. You have to assume that there is a traffic to fill up that slot that could be moving in the place of the Amtrak train. NS can still easily add trains to between Manassas and Atlanta and Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, so dropping the Amtrak train would be of little help. Between Atlanta and Meridian and Porter and Chicago, it's another story.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
SD70Dude Murphy Siding It may have been easy to get rid of the passenger service from Nowhere SD to Nowhere Iowa for example. But I dount it would have been very easy to drop passnegr service on the NE Corridoor or the Chicago to NY trunk lines. Yes, there was a pattern of passenger trainsbeing eliminated but it doesn't appear like that would have been an absolute certainty. Wasn't it the Penn Central bankruptcy and their motion to discontinue all of their non-NEC passenger trains that brought things to a head and prompted the very formation of Amtrak?
That's a huge chunk of it. PC was running half of the passenger trains in the US at the time. A lot of them were pretty ratty, too, even on the NEC.
As an aside, Amtrak has done a really nice job over the years of ridding their train crews of the "PC charm school" mentality.
I think "what-iffing" is interesting because sometimes the "what-if" is still valid and the action just delayed.
So, no Amtrak, but existing "train-off" petitions still going through ICC? The PC problem stays a bit larger and the formation of Conrail might have speeded a lot of the PC "train-offs". Maybe just a couple of E-W LD trains plus NEC and branches - more or less 1971 Amtrak routes over PC?
Other roads? Train-offs continue slowly until the Amtrak route map is what's left - by 1980 or so.
If so, would Staggers and replacement of ICC with STB have included streamlined "train-offs" like it did for line abondonment? Would this have erased most of the route map?
What would have Conrail and the federal and state governments done with the NEC?
New equipment? Not likely. No ROI.
Service vs. cost - What would food service look like? Lounge cars? Seat pitch?
Interesting to think about. Some of it may be presently applicable.
Penn Central's action was more like the straw that broke the camel's back, 34 trains in one Proposed Discontinuance of Service was an eye-catcher.
Santa Fe did it a bit differently a few years earlier. A statement was released mentioning that passenger service was going to be cut back to the "Super Chief/El Capitan", "San Francisco Chief", "Texas Chief" and the remaining "San Diegans". Unlike Penn Central, a bunch of individual train-off petitions were filed and while a lot of discontinuances were allowed, there were a few that weren't.
When he stepped down from his position as CEO of Seaboard Coast Line, Tom Rice said that SCL was "blackmailed" into joining Amtrak. I assume that he meant that they were not allowed to drop the Everglades and the Gulf Coast Special. Otherwise, they may have done what Southern did. If Amtrak did not exist, sooner or later it would have been invented in some form as a result of the Arab oil embargo, which I feel saved Amtrak.
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