As we all know this route is currently up for sale, I heard from the CSX office in Jax that next week they will have potential buyers HighRailing through to check out the line. My question is who would be the most likely to buy this route?
IMO GrupoMexico could make the purchase and combine it with FEC thus creating a new Class I railroad. FEC has been flying under the radar when it comes to class II turning into a class I. Its been said they dont want all the extra hassell that comes along with a Class I. They are pretty much there though. GrupoMexico has been looking to invest heavy in America, esspecially since the new tax cuts. I think they would love to say they now own a Class I. Plus it gets them closer to the border. Thoughts anyone?
Does this line connect with the Atlanta and St. Andrews Bay? If it does and they have the interest and ability to acquire it, it might be worth their while
A McIntosh Does this line connect with the Atlanta and St. Andrews Bay? If it does and they have the interest and ability to acquire it, it might be worth their while
Incidentally, I expect that the line is for sale from Baldwin west; not from Jacksonville west, since the S line goes west from Jacksonville to Baldwin before going south.
Johnny
Deggesty A McIntosh Does this line connect with the Atlanta and St. Andrews Bay? If it does and they have the interest and ability to acquire it, it might be worth their while Yes, they cross at Cottondale. Incidentally, I expect that the line is for sale from Baldwin west; not from Jacksonville west, since the S line goes west from Jacksonville to Baldwin before going south.
Yes, they cross at Cottondale.
The Bay Line ( ASAB ) might not be wanted by FEC. Since it goes to Dothan, Al that would make it an interstate RR that might not be in FEC's interest. Now the Apalachiola Northern RR( AN ) that conects with the CSX line at Chattahoochee could be an intrastate acquisition.
Baldwin with trackage rights to Jacksonville going to Pensacola also seems a good fit. Be quite an intrastate RR.
Would FEC be interested in track that is probably less than Class III? (I.E. the shortlines.)
kgbw49 Would FEC be interested in track that is probably less than Class III? (I.E. the shortlines.)
i think FECs parent company is the real buyer. GrupoMexico has the cash to splash around.
I looked up the subdivisions mentioned, and they do run from Baldwin to Pensacola. That is about 300 miles of RR. I don't know of any significant online sources of traffic, or any potential sources. This line allows New Orleans-to-Florida or Waycross traffic to take a straight shot across the Panhandle instead of traveling much further up to Montgomery, over to Manchester and back down, so I'm surprised CSX would consider selling it.
SALfan...so I'm surprised CSX would consider selling it.
If they can still get from here to there, and move the maintenance of the line to the bottom line, so much the better for the investors looking to squeeze every last dime out of the railroad.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 SALfan ...so I'm surprised CSX would consider selling it. If they can still get from here to there, and move the maintenance of the line to the bottom line, so much the better for the investors looking to squeeze every last dime out of the railroad.
SALfan ...so I'm surprised CSX would consider selling it.
The recent model for CSX freight line divesture has been the leasing model. The Buckingham Branch is such a operation. CSX still owns the trackage the BB operates the BB does the maintenance, operation and dispatching of the line as well as the revenue for the traffic they handle (which includes numerous CSX empty hopper trains returning to the mines from Newport News). I don't know what kind of payment that CSX pays for the hopper trains. BB does all the 'local' work along the line and participates in the line haul revenue for this traffic.
Tri-Rail and SunRail sales to the State of Florida for their commuter passenger operations have been the exceptions to this model, CSX still retains trackage and freight rights to these lines.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
That area across the panhandle of Florida and into Jacksonville area, is in many places crossed by many varying sized waterways; it would also seem to be prime for problems with 'soft ground structure'(?), (sand and marshey ground).
It would seem to point to an area with such problems as to cause very, high maintenance issues(?). Therefore, prime to dump those maintenance problems 'off their books' to another 'leasor line'. Such a situation might be the reason for inclusion on the list of line segment for CSX to shed?
samfp1943 That area across the panhandle of Florida and into Jacksonville area, is in many places crossed by many varying sized waterways; it would also seem to be prime for problems with 'soft ground structure'(?), (sand and marshy ground).
Suspect at least some of the reason is potential hurricane remediation. Sections were utterly obliterated in Katrina (part of why Amtrak truncated the Sunset) and the apparent likelihood of more and stronger storms would make the risk analysis skew very heavily toward offloading it even if 'regular' maintenance is adequately covered by revenue.
If FEC goes after it they would have a decent choke hold on the whole state of Florida. A few more stratigic purchases, and they could really control the price
samfp1943 BaltACD mentioned in one of his posts that 'leasing' a particular segment was apparently, the current model CSX was using to justify moving a lne segment 'off its books' (?). That area across the panhandle of Florida and into Jacksonville area, is in many places crossed by many varying sized waterways; it would also seem to be prime for problems with 'soft ground structure'(?), (sand and marshey ground). It would seem to point to an area with such problems as to cause very, high maintenance issues(?). Therefore, prime to dump those maintenance problems 'off their books' to another 'leasor line'. Such a situation might be the reason for inclusion on the list of line segment for CSX to shed?
BaltACD mentioned in one of his posts that 'leasing' a particular segment was apparently, the current model CSX was using to justify moving a lne segment 'off its books' (?). That area across the panhandle of Florida and into Jacksonville area, is in many places crossed by many varying sized waterways; it would also seem to be prime for problems with 'soft ground structure'(?), (sand and marshey ground). It would seem to point to an area with such problems as to cause very, high maintenance issues(?). Therefore, prime to dump those maintenance problems 'off their books' to another 'leasor line'. Such a situation might be the reason for inclusion on the list of line segment for CSX to shed?
CSX leasing a line to anyone does NOT get the line off CSX's books. They own it and it is part of their asset base. A key measure of profitability is return on assets. Only a sale removes a line from CSX's asset base.
Accepting the premise that this line is succeptible to hurricane damage, if CSX leases it, I think they would have a hard time avoiding being stuck with the cost of repairs if the shortline could not get government money for repairs. If I were CSX and was worried about this issue, I would sell the line and let the chips fall where they may in the event.
Mac
Overmod samfp1943 That area across the panhandle of Florida and into Jacksonville area, is in many places crossed by many varying sized waterways; it would also seem to be prime for problems with 'soft ground structure'(?), (sand and marshy ground). Suspect at least some of the reason is potential hurricane remediation. Sections were utterly obliterated in Katrina (part of why Amtrak truncated the Sunset) and the apparent likelihood of more and stronger storms would make the risk analysis skew very heavily toward offloading it even if 'regular' maintenance is adequately covered by revenue.
The portion of CSX that was destroyed by Katrina was from Mobile to New Orleans, not Pensacola to Jacksonville. The portion of the New Orleans - Jacksonville route from Flomaton, AL to Jacksonville received only minor damages.
It would not surprise me if freights on the west side of the iron triangle would leave cuts of cars for New Orleans traffic. That is in line with the EHH objective of running the core triangle as PSR with secondary lines off the triangle.
Two routes from Jacksonvile to New Orleans off the main triangle probably would not fit that model.
This would seem to be similar to the St. Louis-Cincinnati ex-B&O being on the chopping block. Traffic will take the line to Indy along with everythiing heading that way and blocks would go down to Louisville and Cincinnati. It is a longer route but they roll it all on larger trains and swap blocks.
That is just an uneducated bit of surmising from recalling things mentioned in past articles in various publications about the EHH plans for CSX.
That is not that different from the way CN serves, for example, Minneapolis and Calgary and Mobile with a "heavy-use" branch off the main trunk line.
it will be fascinating to watch it play out.
kgbw49It would not surprise me if freights on the west side of the iron triangle would leave cuts of cars for New Orleans traffic. That is in line with the EHH objective of running the core triangle as PSR with secondary lines off the triangle. Two routes from Jacksonvile to New Orleans off the main triangle probably would not fit that model. This would seem to be similar to the St. Louis-Cincinnati ex-B&O being on the chopping block. Traffic will take the line to Indy along with everythiing heading that way and blocks would go down to Louisville and Cincinnati. It is a longer route but they roll it all on larger trains and swap blocks. That is just an uneducated bit of surmising from recalling things mentioned in past articles in various publications about the EHH plans for CSX. That is not that different from the way CN serves, for example, Minneapolis and Calgary and Mobile with a "heavy-use" branch off the main trunk line. it will be fascinating to watch it play out.
What 2 routes from Jacksonville to New Orleans?
The only New Orleans route is from NOLA to Mobile to Flomaton to Pensacola through Chattachoochee to Jacksonville.
The Bow Line from Waycross to Montgomery through Dothan exists for its own traffic.
I was referring to taking NOLA traffic from Jacksonville “up and over” through Waycross versus going straight across through the panhandle. Sorry for any confusion.
If they spin off the former Sunset route across Florida, that would be their only other option, I am thinking from looking at their system map.
How does most traffic between Jacksonville and New Orleans go now? Across the Panhandle, or through Montgomery (which route is a little over 100 miles longer)?
kgbw49I was referring to taking NOLA traffic from Jacksonville “up and over” through Waycross versus going straight across through the panhandle. Sorry for any confusion. If they spin off the former Sunset route across Florida, that would be their only other option, I am thinking fron looking at their system map.
If they spin off the former Sunset route across Florida, that would be their only other option, I am thinking fron looking at their system map.
Traffic out of Waycross doesn't go to the Panhandle - it moves on the Bow Line through Valdosta and on to Montgomery, AL - all Panhandle and New Orleans traffic moves via Jacksonville to New Orleans. Operationally the Bow Line has been a 'overflow route' for traffic between Birmingham and Waycross that noramally moves over the Lineville and Fitzgerald Subs.
The CSX System map is not indicitive of traffic patterns.
Pottsburg If FEC goes after it they would have a decent choke hold on the whole state of Florida. A few more stratigic purchases, and they could really control the price
The Panhandle line serves a significant portion of Florida's geography, but a rather insignificant portion of its population and it's RR traffic. All of the big population areas and traffic are from Orlando south, not to mention the phosphate traffic. FEC has the east coast, but that plus the Panhandle line don't constitute a stranglehold.
Stranger things have happened, but I'd be very surprised if CSX sold the line to FEC. Atlantic Coast Line wanted FEC in the 1950's, but Ed Ball (using the DuPont estate) fought for and got control. The hatred may have been diluted somewhat by management that didn't come up thru the ACL/SCL/SS ranks (which ACL dominated), but I don't think CSX wants competition from a larger FEC in Florida.
As long as CSX comes into Jacksonville from Folkston, it has the lion's share of Florida traffic, especially in central and west Florida.
Even though the Baldwin Cutoff still exists fron Callahan to Baldwin, CSX will conrtinue go west from Jacksonville to Baldwin--and I have my doubts that CSX would consider giving the FEC trackage rights from Jacksonville to Baldwin.
By the way, I wonder what traffic that would use this cutoff comes up to Baldwin on what was "That Other Railroad"?
(My father worked for the ACL)
Deggesty As long as CSX comes into Jacksonville from Folkston, it has the lion's share of Florida traffic, especially in central and west Florida. Even though the Baldwin Cutoff still exists fron Callahan to Baldwin, CSX will conrtinue go west from Jacksonville to Baldwin--and I have my doubts that CSX would consider giving the FEC trackage rights from Jacksonville to Baldwin. By the way, I wonder what traffic that would use this cutoff comes up to Baldwin on what was "That Other Railroad"? (My father worked for the ACL)
Well CSXs folkston route will never change hands because of Waycross. FEC and CSX already have a good relationship. Everything that comes into florida from the east goes basically goes through FEC until JAX and then CSX and NS take over. FEC also owns Raven transports. I dont think FEC will be a buyer, I think GrupoMexico will be the buyer.
One thing to remember, when CSX sold the trackage around Orlando to SunRail (state of Florida) the bulk of freight was shifted to the S Line through Wildwood from the A line through Orlando. CSX, however, did retain haulage rights to its Orlando area facilities. Baldwin has always been a service point of the S line as well as for the PD/P&A which goes West through the Panhandle to Flomaton, AL.
DeggestyAs long as CSX comes into Jacksonville from Folkston, it has the lion's share of Florida traffic, especially in central and west Florida. Even though the Baldwin Cutoff still exists fron Callahan to Baldwin, CSX will conrtinue go west from Jacksonville to Baldwin--and I have my doubts that CSX would consider giving the FEC trackage rights from Jacksonville to Baldwin. By the way, I wonder what traffic that would use this cutoff comes up to Baldwin on what was "That Other Railroad"? (My father worked for the ACL)
It would be rather humorous if CN bought the line via a unknown subsidiary or shortline......unbeknown to CSX and then found a way to bridge the gap to Pensacola to one if it's North-South mainlines.
CMStPnP It would be rather humorous if CN bought the line via a unknown subsidiary or shortline......unbeknown to CSX and then found a way to bridge the gap to Pensacola to one if it's North-South mainlines.
The BNSF uses NS from Kimbrough to Mobile.
I have no idea as to what BNSF would think of allowing CN to use the track between Memphis and Amory, since that is part of the route from Memphis to Birmingham (think Kansas City-Florida Special).
DeggestyI have no idea as to what BNSF would think of allowing CN to use the track between Memphis and Amory
VERY long coal trains have used the interchange track between CN (southbound) to BNSF (ex-Frisco, southeast) starting a while ago; I observed them in the very early 2000s. So there is no technical impediment 'if the price is right'.
Now, it does have to be said that it's a mighty rickety piece of single track with at least one significant curve, which I would not have thought would support an integral coal train even with low-tare-weight cars, and I did observe speed was very low and the horn turned up at the grade crossing to full (which is an Experience, if you've never been outside next to a unit so operated). But it is certainly possible to interchange most any other traffic there, if the price is right.
Someone here will know how far those coal trains ran on the BNSF and where they further interchanged.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.