Just curious. Traveling south from Sandusky, Ohio to Mansfield multiple times per week I cross two CSX double track lines. Many time I notice a train waiting westbound just before the grade crossing. Now I know that I will never understand signal systems unless I become a railroader but I am just wondering why that train is stopped with no signal in sight. It doesn't seem to be an emergency stop since I see trains stopped at this location quite often.
Thanks.
Tom
TdubMany time I notice a train waiting westbound just before the grade crossing.
In the case that the crew has run out of time, it is a good place to make a crew change.
.
Tdub ...... Now I know that I will never understand signal systems unless I become a railroader....Thanks.
There are several good books about railroad signals. Two that come to mind are Classic Railroad Signals by Brian Solomon and Railroad Signals by the same author.
Railroad Signals, which I have read, can be ordered in digital as well as paperback format from Amazon. I bought the digital format and downloaded it to my Kindle. It is easy to read, and it has good pictures, if I remember correctly, of the signals.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Trains stopped at a road crossing - without benefit of a Stop signal generally indicate one of two things. Most likely the train has used up it's allowed 12 hours on duty and has stopped 'on the law' at a location where a relief crew can have access so the relief crew can move the train to destination and the HOS crew can be taken to the tie up point.
The second reason would be for a train being held out of a terminal until the terminal has space to yard the train. Despite what many think, railroads don't desire to block road crossings. On terminal on territory that i worked, a 'short' 5000 foot train could operate down to the signal that controlled entry to the yard. Trains exceeding 5000 feet but less than 7500 feet had to stop at a road crossing about 5 miles from the yard. Trains exceeding 7500 feet had to hold about 10 miles from the yard. The Train Dispatcher in conversations with the Yardmaster for the Yard would get the information about which trains would be held and relay the information to the trains. The train crews were also conditioned to ask the Train Dispatcher if they were cleared to go past the holding points.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The crew has an intimate knowledge of the territory and there is some coordination with the DS. (unlike in Washington State)
If you have to stop, avoid blocking the crossings, keep the train draped over a rise and a place where you can start again easilly.
Thanks to all. I will look into those signal publications. Since this grade crossing is about 10 miles east of Willard where there is a yard, I am assuming that they are waiting to allowed to enter that yard. Or like you said, it could be a crew change point. So...since the crew knows this area well, the dispatcher talks to the crew via radio and no wayside signal is needed?
Are you talking about the RT.13 crossing near Greenwich,Ohio? I used to work through that area. Trains stopped there are usually waiting to cross the diamond at Greenwich. We always called the dispatcher to ask if we would be able to get a signal to cross there. If not we would pick a point to wait where the train would not block any crossings. Depending on train length and traffic ahead this might be 15 or more miles away and you may even have to stop at a clear signal. The dispatcher would call when it was ok to move up or the train crews would talk to each other.
As others have said, stopping short of places where you have to stop is usually due to crossings or other considerations. On lines equipped with cab signals or PTC, it makes it a lot easier to stop where you can't see the next signal. You don't need someone to tell you things are moving, the cab signal or PTC screen will let you know.
On lines where track warrant control or it's equivalent is in effect, the end of authority may not be where a signal or siding is. Mile posts can be used and even then trains may need to stop short because of crossings, etc.
Jeff
jeffhergertOn lines where track warrant control or it's equivalent is in effect, the end of authority may not be where a signal or siding is. Mile posts can be used and even then trains may need to stop short because of crossings, etc.
Block station signs are often inoccuous - just a simple post with a plate having the name of the block station. Sometimes they are quite cryptic - "Kalb," "Brad," "Rock," and many others. The names are usually shortened versions of something - f'rinstance "Brad" is in the vicinity of Bradley Street. Or they could be named after a former local employee, or a geographical point that no longer exists.
Unless you know what you're looking for, you may not recognize one for what it is.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
In other words, you HAVE to know the territory.
Johnny
jeffhergert wrote the following post 18 hours ago:
"As others have said, stopping short of places where you have to stop is usually due to crossings or other considerations. On lines equipped with cab signals or PTC, it makes it a lot easier to stop where you can't see the next signal. You don't need someone to tell you things are moving, the cab signal or PTC screen will let you know."
How far ahead does PTC look? On the line approaching Williard, Ohio you may have to stop back three or more signal blocks to avoid blocking crossings. There may not be any trains in these blocks.
The employee TT will sometimes specify where a train should stop in order to avoid blocking grade crossings if it exceeds a certain length.
mvlandswHow far ahead does PTC look? On the line approaching Williard, Ohio you may have to stop back three or more signal blocks to avoid blocking crossings. There may not be any trains in these blocks.
Odds are such decisions will be made independent of what PTC says. PTC only ensures that two trains aren't in the same place at the same time, and that speed limits, restrictions, etc, are properly observed. PTC won't prevent an engineer from stopping a train at his discretion.
The crew of a train will usually be in contact with the dispatcher, or possibly a yardmaster, to determine if and when they can enter a yard, go through an interlocking, or in the case of a crew running up against their HOS, where they should stop for a recrew.
At that point, the previous discussions regarding reasons for stopping in a particular spot will be relevant.
Jeff,
The "Dishwasher" instructed you to stop short of XXX road where there was no signal in sight. You did that and waited for further instructions from him/her. What next?
I once heard a CSX DS tell the engineer to enjoy lunch because it would be a long wait before he was allowed to proceed. The tirade from the engineer that followed , expletives deleted, was interesting to say the least. He didn't hold back.
Norm
Thanks mvlandsw. That is the crossing. That answers my question. Thanks so much. And thanks to all for all of your insight. So much to understand. But fun learning.
Cheers.
mvlandsw jeffhergert wrote the following post 18 hours ago: "As others have said, stopping short of places where you have to stop is usually due to crossings or other considerations. On lines equipped with cab signals or PTC, it makes it a lot easier to stop where you can't see the next signal. You don't need someone to tell you things are moving, the cab signal or PTC screen will let you know." How far ahead does PTC look? On the line approaching Williard, Ohio you may have to stop back three or more signal blocks to avoid blocking crossings. There may not be any trains in these blocks.
PTC "sees" ahead six miles. The track line changes color (to yellow) beyond block signals displaying less than clear. (It can also change to yellow for temporary speed restrictions, too. For the signal block, it stays yellow for the entire blocks. For temp speed restrictions, it's only yellow for the restriction limits.) So it is somewhat possible to infer a stop signal beyond the six miles. You need to know your territory and what the PTC screen is showing you.
While there's a few changes I'd like to see to the screen, everyone seems to like PTC for the display it gives.
Norm48327 Jeff, The "Dishwasher" instructed you to stop short of XXX road where there was no signal in sight. You did that and waited for further instructions from him/her. What next? I once heard a CSX DS tell the engineer to enjoy lunch because it would be a long wait before he was allowed to proceed. The tirade from the engineer that followed , expletives deleted, was interesting to say the least. He didn't hold back.
If the dispatcher says stop somewhere, you stop. And stay until he/she says otherwise. Usually there is a reason why they want you to stop at a particular place. The fun part is when either the dispatcher either forgets about you or they change tricks and the old dispatcher doesn't tell the new one that you are waiting to be told when to move.
I've come to realize a few truths. If you've stopped short and been told you're waiting on one (either meeting or passing) it's good to call the dispatcher after that one. Often it seems when they say one, they mean the LAST one, not necessarily the first one. Two means the first and last one, not necessarily the one or two in between. I know it's nothing personal, sometimes their plans change and they don't always have the time to keep you updated on the changes. (There have been times when stopped and told we're meeting multiple trains and the signal changes after one, that I've called the dispatcher to make sure it's OK to take the signal. It's happened that a signal was given to the wrong signal. Usually a change like that is after a dispatcher change. The new one has a different plan in mind than the last one.)
Dispatchers may also issue a formal train message for a train to stop at a specific point, normally a mile post designation in order to facilitate other actions in accordance with the rules. The train may only move again when the specific train message has been annulled.
A B&O train arrived at Glenwood yard in Pittsburgh and was told by the second trick yardmaster that they would get the signal to enter when a track was available. He forgot to tell the third trick man about the train. Not wanting to cut their overtime pay short, the crew waited patiently until the first trick yardmaster discovered them.
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