LION pokes his head out of the zoo, looks around and leaves this package under the tree for discussion...
TOTAL TRAIN CONTROL. On Subchat and elsewhere we have been talking about 501, and how the world must stop until PTC is implimented.
It might be a solution, but it is only half of the solution.
LION is looking at total train control and how it may be implimented within a year for those railroads that want to try it.
First is the control unit, looks like a road slug right behind the power. It is the one that has the GPS equipment, and a computer that has a picture of 300 miles ahead of the train and 100 miles behind the train, it knows the position and direction of all other trains and it knows the physical plant, its switches and signals.
Over at Subchat they told me that handling a mile long freight train over hills and around curves is complicated. Well, duh, of course it is complicated, but you do have distributed power.
So here is the rest of the story... About every fifteen cars or so there is an insturment not at all unlike an EOT device, it measures the buff and stretch forces at the couplers, it measures the speed via a laser against the ballast and incline (going up hill or down hill) and reports back to the control unit changes required in any of the locomotives r/t speed and braking.
Future construction of unit trains could build this into the cars and even have track brakes on each car that will automaticall set and release for parking.
Conductor gets in the cab, releases the brakes, and the automation does the rest. If they wipe out a car at a crossing, and they will, the train will stop and the conductor will inspect the train and the victims and will interface with law, fire and ems. By the time that is finished the railroad will have a new crew there to bring the train home to the next terminal.
Obviously we are only talking about terminal to terminal unit trains here.
Opinions , problems , discussions ???
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Line of road railroading and transit system knowledge are not compatible.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Line of road railroading and transit system knowledge are not compatible.
BroadwayLionOpinions , problems , discussions ???
Already invented. With the additional feature of having a quick-acting modulated brake-release valve, 'trainline' RF metadata repeaters to read sensors on the cars, etc. in the individual units, which are hung in or repositioned as cars go over the hump or are flat-switched to consists. (With adequate differential GPS you probably don't need the added complexity of radar or lidar, although pervasive manufacture of sensors for autonomous vehicles will probably facilitate cost-effective provision eventually)
No need for a whole dumb dorm car with electronics built in (unless the unions want one!) as the controls can be put into locomotive electronics, or a comparatively small box (that takes the place of a RCL controller too if that is desired).
But I have a problem, a very, very severe problem, with lines like "... gets in the cab, releases the brakes, and the automation does the rest." That is a formula for disaster, sooner rather than later. Re-read Steve Kay's "Ten Commandments for Locomotive Engineers" for a more correct view of what ought to happen, and how the system 'should' present its information and control . We can do IxD all day long after that ... while keeping the right focus on what a 'safety system' ought to be doing.
Euclid BaltACD Line of road railroading and transit system knowledge are not compatible. Lion is not talking about an idea to be applied to transit.
Lion is not talking about an idea to be applied to transit.
Nor is Balt suggesting that it is.
He is noting that Lion, and the SubChat group, are discussing freight-railroad train control from an inherently transit-system level of knowledge or applicable technology.
There are places that transit-optimized tech like CBTC can be incorporated into post-mandate "PTC" railroading. There are also places where it doesn't work very well, 'unadapted' -- see the NJT experiments into positive train control for some fairly dramatic ones. It occurs to me that Lion might want to do quite a bit of reading on recent developments in the general field of positive train control and 'smart consists'; in some respects he seems to be stuck in the "there is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home" era...
Actually, mile long trains aren't usually too hard to run. It's when they get to be 2 and 3 miles long that it becomes complicated. The type of train also plays a part in how a train handles.
You can tear up trains with Distributed Power, too. It isn't a cure-all.
Jeff
Am I correct that the technology is more approriate for unit trains where all cars have the same weight and mechanical characteristics than for mixed-traffic trains where there are a variety of wights, lengths, draft-gear, etc.?
Gald to see you back here Brother Lion, and Merry Christmas to you!
And Lady Firestorm says Merry Christmas to you as well!
jeffhergertActually, mile long trains aren't usually too hard to run. It's when they get to be 2 and 3 miles long that it becomes complicated. The type of train also plays a part in how a train handles. You can tear up trains with Distributed Power, too. It isn't a cure-all. Jeff
Mile long train - in todays world of railroading that is a baby train, hardly worth the effort needed to assemble and operate it.
BaltACDMile long train - in todays world of railroading that is a baby train, hardly worth the effort needed to assemble and operate it.
Remember the days of steam when anything more than one hundred cars was usually a double header? LOL.
Norm
Hearing a 700+ axle train on the Whitesboro defect detector is getting to be a normal event... It's rare to hear under 400...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
jeffhergert Actually, mile long trains aren't usually too hard to run. It's when they get to be 2 and 3 miles long that it becomes complicated. The type of train also plays a part in how a train handles. You can tear up trains with Distributed Power, too. It isn't a cure-all. Jeff
Uh Huh... Length of the pockets controls train lengths up here. So all I get to see are one mile trains. Got a two or more track main line, then yeah, a three mile train is nice to have.
Distributed Power might have a locomotive every 100 cars. But for the engineer (or the computers) to know where the buffs and stretches are is always helpful information.
I still foresee a time when these trains run without onboard crew.
BroadwayLion jeffhergert Actually, mile long trains aren't usually too hard to run. It's when they get to be 2 and 3 miles long that it becomes complicated. The type of train also plays a part in how a train handles. You can tear up trains with Distributed Power, too. It isn't a cure-all. Jeff Uh Huh... Length of the pockets controls train lengths up here. So all I get to see are one mile trains. Got a two or more track main line, then yeah, a three mile train is nice to have. Distributed Power might have a locomotive every 100 cars. But for the engineer (or the computers) to know where the buffs and stretches are is always helpful information. I still foresee a time when these trains run without onboard crew. ROAR
To present day railroad managements - siding length no longer really controls length of trains and really never has.
Run non-clearing trains in one direction and clearing trains in the other on single track. Even then some one from the Wit family will end up running a non-clearing train in the direction that is supposed to clear. Learn the words 'saw by' in both single and double forms.
The Lion has spent too much time underground with subway cars.
BroadwayLion Uh Huh... Length of the pockets controls train lengths up here. So all I get to see are one mile trains. Got a two or more track main line, then yeah, a three mile train is nice to have. Distributed Power might have a locomotive every 100 cars. But for the engineer (or the computers) to know where the buffs and stretches are is always helpful information. I still foresee a time when these trains run without onboard crew. ROAR
Where DP units ae placed is governed by train make up (loads/empties) blocking order and footage restrictions between engine consists. Not car counts. The LEADER energy managment system calculates and displays buff/draft forces on the operating screen. (Although there can be a few seconds delay from where you feel it in the seat to where you see it on the screen.) I and my coworkers have been running trains 2 to 3 miles long for quite a while. (9000 ft now seems like a baby train for manifests.) Without the aid of a buff/draft screen for the most part. It might be nice, but if you know what you're doing it won't be of much help. If you don't know what you're doing, it still won't be much help.
I think you see completely crewless trains for the forseeable future. The duties (and wage level) of the remaining person riding the train will be way different than today. Until the railroads can go to completely and securely separated rights of way, I don't think completely automatic trains will be politically feasible.
To me, the idea of remote control of individual trains from a central location like a drone isn't going to happen. You really don't gain anything and lose the ability of someone on scene to fix small problems. Or to keep a small problem from getting bigger.
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