On my model rairoad, Pacific Cascade Railway, both NP through Yakima and GN through Chehalis WA often send freight and trains across White Pass on my line. In 1878 C.A. White actually surveyed this line for NP, and in my version of history in 1950 NP & GN built the line to parallel Stampede pass. I am looking for the freight train designations for these two lines in Washington to use on my railroad. On line links are preferred. Thanks for any help.Capt. Brigg Franklin; CEO Pacific Cascade Rainway in HO gauge;
Capt.
I clerked for GN at Wenatchee in the time period you asked about, so I know the GN. The GN operated four pairs of trains per day over the Cascades in 1969. 5 and the East Pig, 97 & 82, 83 & 88, and a Drag West and a Drag East.
#5 was a mail train from Spokane to Seattle, Daily except Saturday, that also handled hot cars equipped with roller bearings, including 89' TOFC cars. The train was usually 12-15 cars. Power was 2-3 passenger F units. This train was the fastest on the line, quicker than even the Empire Builder. Switch engines plucked storage mail cars off the rear end at Wenatchee and Everett. The east pig was longer, up to 40 cars, was merchandise cars (box and TOFC) from Seattle to Spokane, and power was that from last nights #5. It also operated only six days per week and through Wenatchee about 2AM.
#97 was the hot train from Chicago and Minneapolis. Its base traffic was forwarder merchandise in box cars from eastern connections, Chicago, and the Twin Cities. It made a setout at Everett Junction and was limited to 3600 tons with 3 SD-45 units over the Cascades.
#82 was the hot train east. It carried most any kind of traffic for Gavin Yard (Minot) and points east of Gavin and made a pickup at Everett Junction. It used the power into Interbay on #97, and it too was limited to 3600 tons as a 'single train'. That is, no helper. Picked up available Gavin and east traffic at Wenatchee.
#83 handled everything that #97 did not from Gavin and east to Hillyard, the SP&S, Delta and north, and Seattle (and Puget Sound points). #83 was a helper train limited to 6500 tons over the Cascades. Both 97 and 83 were scheduled to arrive in Seattle about midnight, and the brass monitored 97 very closely.
#88 used power off #83, most often a set of four U-25-B units. It followed #82 out of Interbay, made a pickup at Everett Jct, got helpers at Skykomish, and gererally cut them out at Cashmere for the Drag West. The train picked up Hillyard and Gavin (if any) traffic in block at Wenatchee. It also picked up all fruit, predominately apples, in season. It was refered to as "The Fruit" on the Spokane Division, and perhaps so all the way east.
There was also a daily drag East from Interbay and a Drag West from Wenatchee. These 6500 ton helper trains handled low priority and regional traffic. Think woodchips, grain, alumina ore, empty cars, reductions off #97 and #83. They were called at Balmer and Wenatchee to use the other leg of the helper power's round trip on trains 88 and 83.
In the fall and winter there were occassional grain extras, 6500 ton helper trains. GN ran its helpers cut in so that each set of power pulled the tonnage behind it. Helpers were F7, F3, GP7 and GP9 in any combination of four units. The drags typically had 6 such units on the point, so helpers were cut in behing 60% of the tonnage.
Info on the NP is available on NPRHA web site. They have most, if not all NP train briefs of the period. Since the briefs are available and I am less familiar with NP, I will not say much except to note that during the late 1960's the NP did not run helper trains even though its crossing, like the GN. was 2.2% compensated grades both ways. NP's single trains were limited to 4250 tons, seven F or GP units. They tended to have road jobs comming west set out their excess tonnage at Easton. Auburn would then run an Easton Turn to take up to 4250 tons to Easton, and pick up the previous day's set outs.
As I recall NP #601 was the NP counterpart to GN #97 handling forwarder traffic in competition with GN, MILW and UP. By this time the MILW was not able to keep time due to deferred maintenance of the track.
Mac McCulloch
PNWRMNMthe East Pig, 97 & 82, 83 & 88, and a Drag West and a Drag East.
Mac, thanks for your extensive knowledge of the GN. Did the "pigs" and "drags" you refer to also have train numbers? Did any of these trains run between Seattle and Portland through Chehalis where I could run & see them on my model train layout? Again thanks.Capt. Brigg; CEO Pacific Cascade Railway in HO gauge
Capt.Brigg PNWRMNM the East Pig, 97 & 82, 83 & 88, and a Drag West and a Drag East. Mac, thanks for your extensive knowledge of the GN. Did the "pigs" and "drags" you refer to also have train numbers? Did any of these trains run between Seattle and Portland through Chehalis where I could run & see them on my model train layout? Again thanks.Capt. Brigg; CEO Pacific Cascade Railway in HO gauge
the East Pig, 97 & 82, 83 & 88, and a Drag West and a Drag East.
None of the trains above showed in the Employee Time Table. The numbers refered to here were used as train symbols, for marketing purposes and non-operating short hand and as train identification on train briefs. To the train dispatchers #97 was Extra 400 West today, Extra 405 West tomorrow, etc. If management wanted to know about the progress of the symbol trains they used that language, plus departure date, to track them or call the DS without having to know what engine happened to be leading at the moment.
Given the real traffic patterns across Washington State, there was no need for your route. Part of the proof is that the NP went via Stampede Pass rather than White Pass when it had unhinderd choice of routes in the late 1880's. Remember that NP's west end had to be a port on Puget Sound by the terms of its federal charter.
In the 1960's Seattle and Tacoma were the main destinations and origin points for carload, intermodal, and export grain as there were elevators in both Seattle and Tacoma. Both the GN and the NP went to Canada and interchanged with the Canadian carriers.
NP owned the then double track, now two main track, route between Seattle and Vancouver WA. GN had full trackage rights on this line, that is they could serve all customers. The UP had trackage rights from North Portland to Tacoma and then its own line, joint with MILW, to Seattle.
Vancouver WA to Portland was owned by the SP&S and NP and GN had rights over it.
Traffic to Portland, Vancouver and intermediate points between Spokane and Vancouver moved via the SP&S. The SP&S had a hot connection for cars off #83 and #97 for Portland. It originated at Hillyard, which was GN's only connection to SP&S. The NP interchanged most of its SP&S traffic at Pasco, short hauling the SP&S in the process. Both GN and NP preferred to route their export grain to Lower Columbia River ports via the SP&S, getting it back at Vancouver for delivery to Portland, Kalama, and Longview. I suspect that the SP&S spotted the export elevator at Vancouver. Using the SP&S avoided having to haul grain over their respective mountains and was also the shortest route to the Lower Columbia River ports. Also in general, the NP used SP&S east from Vancouver for all its east traffic to and from Centralia, stations south on the double track, and branches at Centralia and Chehalis.
It is your model railroad and you can imagine anything you want, but in the real world your route is noncompetitive for virtually all traffic, and all three routes were uncongested even with four passenger trains on each line. It would have been even longer than the real NP to Seattle. The proof of the noncompetitive point is that after the BN merger, the BN eventually routed ALL through traffic off the NP and onto the GN and the SP&S for many years. The GN was the short route between Spokane and Seattle, at about 330 miles. The NP was about 395 miles. In 1969 NP passenger trains took about two hours more between Spokane and Seattle than did the GN. SP&S via the gorge is about 500 miles. Much more mileage BUT ruling grade does not exceed 1.1% (Napavine Hill).
Today the GN line is full of intermodal trains. Unit grain, coal, and oil all run west down the gorge from Pasco. Some of these go to destinations north of Seattle and Everett. Empty unit trains from Puget Sound run Auburn to Pasco on the old NP to reduce the number of meets on the single track line through the gorge.
Mac
Capt., I also considered a model RR between Tacoma and Yakama that would have utilized White Pass, but would also have utilized a natural low valley to bring the line along the southern boundary of Mt Rainier Nat'l Park. However, I thought of a friendly connection at Yakama with the UP, who would have used the line as a shorter alternative to the trackage rights on joint line N of Portland. My line is only practical using modeler's license.
In the Forties and Fifties, there was an author named S. (Selwyn) Kip Farrington, Jr; he was apparently born to a fair amount of wealth and worked in his family's brokerage firm, and at a very young age, but could muster no enthusiasm for the role. He was, however, possessed of a good deal of journalistic skill, so he gravitated to writing on his three favorite subjects -- amateur hockey, big-game-fishing, and railroading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._Kip_Farrington
Although he later produced The Santa Fe's Big Three, on that road's best-known steam power, most of his railroad-centered works were essentially public-relations-oriented, with enough technical material added to attract railfans. Railroads of the Hour, published in 1958, was the last of this series, and included considerable material on the NP. (And as an aside, it also makes reference to the Bakken Oil Field, in which NP and its successors "mothballed" their options until more favorable economic circumstances came to pass.)
No actual ETT data was provided, but on its transcontinental main, the NP appeared to operate (without timetable authority) two daiiy manifest freights in each directon. One of the eastbounds, designated simply "F" appears to be a maid-of-all-work; timetable authority was conferred on the North Coast Limited, the Mainstreeter, and a daily Spokane-Tacoma accomodation schedule.
One thing to remember about Timetable Schedules. First Class trains (passenger) operated on the schedules as published. Second and Third Class schedules, where they exist, were TOOLS for the Train Dispatcher to use in oprating their railroad. Some carriers were happy to operate all their freights as Extras.
My experience on the B&O's St. Louis Division, Timetable schedules were assigned to trains depending upon when they were called on duty at origin or when they were anticipated to arrive at a crew change point (which normally also corresponded with dispatching districts). It was not unheard of for a specific 'named' manifest train to originate from E.Saint Louis with one schedule number and then operate from Washington, IN under a different schedule number.
A note about schedules, at least under B&O Rules. Schedules were in effect until a train completed the run of a schedule, until the schedule was 12 hours old or until it was annulled. If a train was running on a schedule that went 12 hours old, the train lost authority to operate and then had to be established and given authority to operate as a Extra train.
In assigning schedules, if the train was expected to depart origin at 8 AM, you would have to assign it a schedule that departed that location PRIOR to 8 AM or the train would be delayed waiting on the departure time of the schedule. Therefore, 2nd & 3rd Class trains always operated late on the schedules they were assigned to.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD One thing to remember about Timetable Schedules. First Class trains (passenger) operated on the schedules as published. Second and Third Class schedules, where they exist, were TOOLS for the Train Dispatcher to use in oprating their railroad. Some carriers were happy to operate all their freights as Extras. My experience on the B&O's St. Louis Division, Timetable schedules were assigned to trains depending upon when they were called on duty at origin or when they were anticipated to arrive at a crew change point (which normally also corresponded with dispatching districts). It was not unheard of for a specific 'named' manifest train to originate from E.Saint Louis with one schedule number and then operate from Washington, IN under a different schedule number. A note about schedules, at least under B&O Rules. Schedules were in effect until a train completed the run of a schedule, until the schedule was 12 hours old or until it was annulled. If a train was running on a schedule that went 12 hours old, the train lost authority to operate and then had to be established and given authority to operate as a Extra train. In assigning schedules, if the train was expected to depart origin at 8 AM, you would have to assign it a schedule that departed that location PRIOR to 8 AM or the train would be delayed waiting on the departure time of the schedule. Therefore, 2nd & 3rd Class trains always operated late on the schedules they were assigned to.
There is, of course, the story of the train that attived in a town at the time advertised--but was 24 hours late.
I wonder just how an Amtrak train that is twelve or more hours late is handled.
Johnny
Deggesty I have understood that, on any railroad, a train loses its achedule if it falls 12 hours or more behind schedule, and can move only with an order to move. There is, of course, the story of the train that attived in a town at the time advertised--but was 24 hours late. I wonder just how an Amtrak train that is twelve or more hours late is handled.
I have understood that, on any railroad, a train loses its achedule if it falls 12 hours or more behind schedule, and can move only with an order to move.
At least on the freight railroads, Amtrak schedules are meaningless from an operational view. Their schedules aren't even shown on the "stations" page of time tables (UP and I think BNSF) anymore. They do (or did) appear in the back for informational puposes. Trains today have no class(), or superiority under the operating rules.
Jeff
DeggestyI wonder just how an Amtrak train that is twelve or more hours late is handled.
Today's railroads do not operate with the Timetable & Train Order form of operation. As such, Schedules have no Timetable authority in operations. The only thing 12 hours is concerned with is the Hours of Service law and what time crews will run out of time to move trains.
[quote user="jeffhergert"]Yes, with CTC and Track Warrant control, schedules are no longer necessary for freights. The Amtrak ETT that I have (it's 30 years old, but the form may well still be used),, does have the schedules of the Amtrak trains.
[/quote]
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