Paul of Covington Deggesty I do not remember if it was cuprinol, but when I was getting some extra work, in a lumber yard, about 25 years ago, we treated some posts with a greenish liquid--and were careful not to get any on us or spill it on our clothing. Must be what we called "green creosote." We painted our fence with it back in the 1950's. When my father was repairing a fence, he dipped the end of the posts that were going into the ground in black creosote, then we painted the rest of it with green creosote.
Deggesty I do not remember if it was cuprinol, but when I was getting some extra work, in a lumber yard, about 25 years ago, we treated some posts with a greenish liquid--and were careful not to get any on us or spill it on our clothing.
I do not remember if it was cuprinol, but when I was getting some extra work, in a lumber yard, about 25 years ago, we treated some posts with a greenish liquid--and were careful not to get any on us or spill it on our clothing.
Must be what we called "green creosote." We painted our fence with it back in the 1950's. When my father was repairing a fence, he dipped the end of the posts that were going into the ground in black creosote, then we painted the rest of it with green creosote.
Home improvement stores these days sell 'treated' lumber and it has a greenish cast to it. It is heavier than similar untreated lumber. But is sure isn't creosote.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Borate
mudchickenBorate
But this from the American Borate company on the use of borates as wood preservative (and they know about copper-chromium-boron treatments):
"However with all the ... benefits it should be mentioned that borates will also leach from the wood if there is a moisture source on the exterior of the wood. That is why borate compounds are not labeled for use in the ground. The potential for constant availability of water will change the direction of the borate treatment in the soil around the structure."
Is railroad drainage good enough to preclude that? They also add that penetration is good in green or wet wood (the borates are water-soluble), up to about 35%, but in dry or seasoned wood, as might be used for ties going into a pressure-treatment plant, penetration can only be about 9% or so.
Since you have practical experience with this stuff -- does it work well in this specific sort of situation?
I wonder if the "paint" they mention is some clone of the Rust-Oleum "creosote replacement", which uses copper naphthenate and monoethanolamine (but only in "2.5 to 10%" concentration each) together with a nice, dark stain to make your landscape timbers look nice.
No
What is puzzling is the RR press except Trains is completely ignoring this news. That press is quick to post cross tie deliveries each quarter.
blue streak 1What is puzzling is the RR press except Trains is completely ignoring this news. That press is quick to post cross tie deliveries each quarter.
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mudchicken Paul of Covington IslandMan I suppose in the future chemically-modified wood might come into use for ties. The two main processes are acetylation with acetic anhydride and treatment with furfuryl alchohol. Both processes move perishable timber such a poplar into the same durability league as tropical hardwoods. The furfuryl alchohol process also greatly improves the hardness of the wood. It should be possible to use fast-growing softwoods for ties with this process. I don't know if this would be what you are talking about, but a few years ago I remember reading that some sort of composite tie was being tried. (Plastic-wood fiber?) What was the result of those tests? fail when placed in tension, which does happen...
Paul of Covington IslandMan I suppose in the future chemically-modified wood might come into use for ties. The two main processes are acetylation with acetic anhydride and treatment with furfuryl alchohol. Both processes move perishable timber such a poplar into the same durability league as tropical hardwoods. The furfuryl alchohol process also greatly improves the hardness of the wood. It should be possible to use fast-growing softwoods for ties with this process. I don't know if this would be what you are talking about, but a few years ago I remember reading that some sort of composite tie was being tried. (Plastic-wood fiber?) What was the result of those tests?
IslandMan I suppose in the future chemically-modified wood might come into use for ties. The two main processes are acetylation with acetic anhydride and treatment with furfuryl alchohol. Both processes move perishable timber such a poplar into the same durability league as tropical hardwoods. The furfuryl alchohol process also greatly improves the hardness of the wood. It should be possible to use fast-growing softwoods for ties with this process.
I don't know if this would be what you are talking about, but a few years ago I remember reading that some sort of composite tie was being tried. (Plastic-wood fiber?) What was the result of those tests?
fail when placed in tension, which does happen...
The stuff I'm talking about is whole wood (not wood-derived fibres or particles) treated with chemicals so that the cellulose is no longer attractive to fungi or other wood-rotting organisms. The two processes mentioned (treatment with acetic anhydride or furfuryl alcohol) pressure treat planks, beams etc. with the chemicals which then react to change the chemistry of the wood. For ties, the process would be broadly similar to existing treatment but with one of the two chemicals mentioned substituted for creosote.
I mentioned earlier that chemically-modified wood can be burned for fuel when it is life-expired and so of course can creosoted wood. The use of creosote is increasingly restricted as it is a carcinogen and can leach into water. In Europe it is still used for industrial timber such as ties and utility poles but is no longer sold for domestic use. Most alternatives to creosote involve heavy metals, fluorides, borates or chlorocarbons which would cause pollution if the wood were burned without special measures to capture these.
There are wood/plastic composites but these are different materials.
I know that some years ago there was an attempt to use ground-up ties mixed with plastic as the basis for new ties and I also know that this was a bit of a disaster!
The composite Cedrite tie failed under tension as well. Chemical process and silicate treated worked, but the economics were more than three times the cost and projections for mass production were not good. Liked the test section silicate ties, which could be colored - Made a neat yellow at-grade crossing, Too bad the camcar and domehead screws failed long before the wood did. (Test section could do nothing about the grossly overloaded commercial trucks and the lousy approaches ... but the site was picked because it was known to be abused)
mudchickenToo bad the camcar and domehead screws failed long before the wood did...
For those who don't recognize what he means, here is a PDF technical manual from Stanley on them
Overmod Thanks. Now I know what a camcar screw is--a screw with a socket head. I went on down, and found that they also make what I came to know, in 1946, as "allen screws"--socket head setscrews. mudchicken Too bad the camcar and domehead screws failed long before the wood did... For those who don't recognize what he means, here is a PDF technical manual from Stanley on them
Thanks. Now I know what a camcar screw is--a screw with a socket head.
I went on down, and found that they also make what I came to know, in 1946, as "allen screws"--socket head setscrews.
mudchicken Too bad the camcar and domehead screws failed long before the wood did...
Johnny
DeggestyI went on down, and found that they also make what I came to know, in 1946, as "allen screws"--socket head setscrews.
Johnny.
that is what I also came up with on a search.
Norm
Anybody who has come into close proximity to a recently creasoted wood tie will tell you that the smell of one is entirely unmistakeable...virtually anything else used to "mimic" the look of creasote on a wood tie will not smell even close to that way.
eolafan Anybody who has come into close proximity to a recently creasoted wood tie will tell you that the smell of one is entirely unmistakeable...virtually anything else used to "mimic" the look of creasote on a wood tie will not smell even close to that way.
Just a WAG on my part but I think tie gangs would, after a time on the job, not even notice the smell. I've stood next to a bundle of new ties and the stench was overwhelming to me. Those who work with them every day probably think they are the smell of money.
Norm48327 eolafan Anybody who has come into close proximity to a recently creasoted wood tie will tell you that the smell of one is entirely unmistakeable...virtually anything else used to "mimic" the look of creasote on a wood tie will not smell even close to that way. Just a WAG on my part but I think tie gangs would, after a time on the job, not even notice the smell. I've stood next to a bundle of new ties and the stench was overwhelming to me. Those who work with them every day probably think they are the smell of money.
Beyond that, ties for tie gang installation are normally distributed several weeks to several months in advance of the tie gang showing up in the territory to be worked.
BaltACDBeyond that, ties for tie gang installation are normally distributed several weeks to several months in advance of the tie gang showing up in the territory to be worked.
Ever driven by a skunk a few weeks after he got run over? The stench lingers.
Norm48327 BaltACD Beyond that, ties for tie gang installation are normally distributed several weeks to several months in advance of the tie gang showing up in the territory to be worked. Ever driven by a skunk a few weeks after he got run over? The stench lingers.
BaltACD Beyond that, ties for tie gang installation are normally distributed several weeks to several months in advance of the tie gang showing up in the territory to be worked.
And those the lived in the immediate area of paper plants never thought their area stunk. Those that are 'imersed' in foul smells become immune to them over time (and the time necessary isn't all that long). However, after being aclimated to the smell - the absence of it is not as easily noticed.
Chuck,
I have never seen a dead skunk on the road that didn't stink. I did my best to avoid their carcasses.
There is a huge difference between the odor on a skunk and creosote ties. A skunk releases Sulphur compounds in a way of Thelatdes that linger for days. Those compounds always attach themselves to the receptors in the nose. Why do you think a skunk has very few natural predators. Creosote the smell goes away in a couple weeks heck the BNSF did some tie replacements around here this summer. The ties where dropped 4 months prior to the crew coming thru. By the time the crew came in there was no scent of anything on those ties.
Overmod mudchicken Too bad the camcar and domehead screws failed long before the wood did... For those who don't recognize what he means, here is a PDF technical manual from Stanley on them
Looking at the address on the PDF, it looks like the camcar screws were failing from excessive exposure to Lutefisk fumes...
I sent a picture of a box of screws made by Decorah LLC and he replied that name was a couple of corporate changes out of date - Stanley is the current one.
Domeheads used to be bulletproof and camcars were supposed to be the next step up, but lord help you if your air impact wrench bit fails or is missing. It's a lonely feeling when you can't get those rascals back out.
The hometown manufacturer (Lewis Nut & Bolt - La Junta) is trying to find a better/stronger/easier solution for the industry that can take the abuse. Don't know if it's a metallurgy thing or what, but there are plenty of broken screw shafts because of the beatings that crossing planks take, pre-drilled or not.
Norm48327 Chuck, I have never seen a dead skunk on the road that didn't stink. I did my best to avoid their carcasses.
mudchickenDomeheads used to be bulletproof and camcars were supposed to be the next step up, but lord help you if your air impact wrench bit fails or is missing. It's a lonely feeling when you can't get those rascals back out. The hometown manufacturer (Lewis Nut & Bolt - La Junta) is trying to find a better/stronger/easier solution for the industry that can take the abuse. Don't know if it's a metallurgy thing or what, but there are plenty of broken screw shafts because of the beatings that crossing planks take, pre-drilled or not.
I would imagine repetitive angular impacts from passing tires is causing stresses down the shaft and after enough repetition from varying angles the shaft breaks. Metal that gets bent at the same location ends up breaking from the stresses.
mudchickenDon't know if it's a metallurgy thing or what, but there are plenty of broken screw shafts because of the beatings that crossing planks take, pre-drilled or not.
I think it's a loading thing, and in all probability highly related to the comparable failure modes of track fixation screw devices we've discussed previously. What I'd like to see in particular would be putting hemispherical-domed seats in the holes in the crossing planks, with corresponding radii on the underside of the heads down to a generous fillet to the shank, so that any 'roll' of the planks is taken up in the controlled joint rather than throwing shock bending stress down into the shank indiscriminately. I would also wonder if the moral equivalent of rail anchors, absorbing most or all the determined lateral shear component of truck impact on the crossing planks, might assist with overstressing hold-down bolts in unexpected modes.
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