Hyperloop One... It can't be done?

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Hyperloop One... It can't be done?
Posted by Gramp on Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:18 AM
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Posted by Saturnalia on Wednesday, August 02, 2017 8:26 PM

Nobody thought Elon Musk could land a rocket on a barge...until he did. 

It remains to be seen, but if he can create a hyperloop which does for terrainian transport as his Falcon 9 rocket has for space, we might be reading a whole lot more about vacuum tubes in future editions of Trains! 

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Posted by NorthWest on Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:00 PM

Maglev has also been tested, demonstrated, and put into regular service. However, it hasn't caught on due to cost and flexibility issues that I suspect the Hyperloop will share.

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Posted by DSchmitt on Wednesday, August 02, 2017 9:18 PM

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, August 03, 2017 7:11 AM

Elon Musk comes across to me as someone who honestly believes that technological advances will somehow solve many social problems.  The ability to land the first stage of a launch vehicle on a barge is a nice trick but is it really worth the expense and what does it accomplish that hadn't already been done with the Space Shuttle?

Musk has yet to demonstrate that he can mass produce electric cars at a level that can eliminate an 18 to 24 month wait after you place your order.  I'm not sure that the hyperloop can be operated and maintained with the precision it appears to require.

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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Thursday, August 03, 2017 11:12 AM

The effects of sudden decompression in a vacume on the human body is not pretty. Think Explosive Decompression!!!

http://www.geoffreylandis.com/vacuum.html

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Posted by Gramp on Thursday, August 03, 2017 11:36 AM

From USA Today.  Musk looking to be able to tunnel "at a snail's pace" between NYC and Wash., DC.

Elon Musk aims to revamp tunnel digging
Strikes deal with Wis. firm to build underground rail
Nathan Bomey
@NathanBomey USA TODAY
Billionaire CEO Elon Musk is known for his California rocket and electric-car businesses, but he looked to the Midwest to show he is serious about building an ultra-high-speed underground rail system from New York to Washington, D.C.
In pursuit of a massive tunnel boring machine to innovate yet again, Musk struck a deal with Super Excavators in Menomonee Falls, Wis. He is drawing upon the 67year-old contracting company’s expertise with a goal of developing ways to dig tunnels faster — an accomplishment that could dramatically reduce the cost of bringing his latest dream to life.
Musk, CEO of both automaker Tesla and rocket maker SpaceX, has quietly assembled a team of advisers to aid his latest start-up, which he appropriately named The Boring Co.
He tabbed Super Excavators as temporary consultants to help get the machine up and running.
The previously unearthed ties between The Boring Co. and Super Excavators reveal fresh insight into how Musk has become serious about tunnel technology. In July, he teased that he had received “verbal” government approval to build a “ hyperloop” rail system to zip passengers in magnetically levitated underground rail cars running through tubes from New York to Washington, D.C., in 29 minutes — a 226-mile trip that normally takes nearly three hours by the fastest train.
“It’s always good to have an innovator looking at a process,” said Peter Schraufnagel, president of Super Excavators. “ We’re excited to see what comes out of this.”
When Musk confidant, SpaceX engineer and tunnels project leader Steve Davis approached Super Excavators several months ago, the Wisconsin company had a ready-made solution.
The Canadian-made boring machine is several hundred feet long and 14 feet in diameter. The giant machine has bored holes for sewers in San Francisco and a flood-control project in Indianapolis.
Schraufnagel declined to say how much Musk paid, but buying a used tunnel boring machine can cost several million dollars.
Musk’s goal is to create a machine that can tunnel through the earth as fast as a snail, 10 times faster than current technology.
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Posted by schlimm on Thursday, August 03, 2017 4:29 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

Elon Musk comes across to me as someone who honestly believes that technological advances will somehow solve many social problems.  

Musk has yet to demonstrate that he can mass produce electric cars at a level that can eliminate an 18 to 24 month wait after you place your order.  I'm not sure that the hyperloop can be operated and maintained with the precision it appears to require.

 

The barrier is not having sufficient factory infrastructure, not technology.  Perhaps he'll buy some underused assembly plants from the BIG 3?  That would be somewhat analogous to Amazon's buying Whole Foods to get into the grocery business quickly.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

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Posted by Saturnalia on Thursday, August 03, 2017 7:41 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

The ability to land the first stage of a launch vehicle on a barge is a nice trick but is it really worth the expense and what does it accomplish that hadn't already been done with the Space Shuttle?

Musk has yet to demonstrate that he can mass produce electric cars at a level that can eliminate an 18 to 24 month wait after you place your order.  I'm not sure that the hyperloop can be operated and maintained with the precision it appears to require.

Space Shuttle really wasn't all it was cracked up to be. The goal of Falcon 9 is to relaunch within days, not quarters. The launch costs of the Falcon9 versus a Space Shuttle are completely different leagues. 

Musk is also just ramping up production at Tesla, give it time. 

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Posted by NittanyLion on Monday, August 07, 2017 3:15 PM

Saturnalia

Nobody thought Elon Musk could land a rocket on a barge...until he did. 

It remains to be seen, but if he can create a hyperloop which does for terrainian transport as his Falcon 9 rocket has for space, we might be reading a whole lot more about vacuum tubes in future editions of Trains! 

 

Two things:

No one in the industry thought SpaceX wouldn't be able to do it. Every player in the business had subscale prototypes and the concept dates to the 60s. There's nothing particularly groundbreaking about it. The only difference is that SpaceX is willing to take the mass penalty on the first stage and it isn't clear if there's any real savings in refurbishing a first stage. 

Secondly, if Hyperloop does what Falcon 9 does...cost roughly the same but have no major advantage over a competitive machine, but everyone fawns over the guy running the place? 

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 9:45 AM

Hyperloop is going nowhere, in my opinion.   Technology is not at the point where that makes sense with either the electromagnetic model or with the vacuum model.   The ticket costs to support such a system long term would be astronomical and the capacity limitation on how many people could be moved between point A and point B in a given timeframe would be limited as well driving up ticket prices further over time.

Many of us are still waiting for Tesla to be self-sustaining.    At some point the government aid as well as the junk bond sales will dry up.........then what?

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Posted by BLS53 on Thursday, October 12, 2017 8:04 AM

Richard Branson, Virgin Group, has just invested in the project:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/12/richard-bransons-virgin-group-invests-in-hyperloop-one.html

Virgin's primary business today is in the airline industry. Arguably, one of the railroad industry's biggest mistakes was not investing in aviation in the 1920's and 30's. "Nobody will ever get on one of those things". Branson is forward thinking. I wouldn't doubt that in 50 years the hyperloop has replaced the short to medium haul airline business.

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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Thursday, October 12, 2017 9:52 AM

Could they come up with giant clear plastic tubes that you can watch the scenery zip by?

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Posted by WM7471 on Thursday, October 12, 2017 10:01 AM

BLS53

Arguably, one of the railroad industry's biggest mistakes was not investing in aviation in the 1920's and 30's.

IIRC several of the larger railroads (the Santa Fe & the Pennsylvania come to mind.) started to invest in the fledgling airlines in the years before WWII.  They were stopped by Congress over fears that they would buy up the airlines and then shut them down to prevent competition.

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Posted by mudchicken on Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:12 AM

Thank you - Beat me to it.

Santa Fe Skyways - 7/1/46 thru late 1947 with a fleet of DC-4's  and DC-3s

Image result for Santa Fe Railroad airlineRelated image

PRR ATSF and Transcontinental Air Transport (laterTWA) were networking as far back as 1929...C&EI started air transport between Chicago and points south.

 

 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:06 PM

In a similar vein, North Central Airlines (now part of Delta) started out as Wisconsin Central Airlines, a subsidiary of Wisconsin Central RR.  Northeast Airlines (also now part of Delta) was originally Boston-Maine Airways, owned by B&M.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, October 12, 2017 9:23 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
In a similar vein, North Central Airlines (now part of Delta) started out as Wisconsin Central Airlines, a subsidiary of Wisconsin Central RR.  Northeast Airlines (also now part of Delta) was originally Boston-Maine Airways, owned by B&M.

Flew with Herman the Duck a time or two.

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Posted by beaulieu on Friday, October 13, 2017 12:27 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

In a similar vein, North Central Airlines (now part of Delta) started out as Wisconsin Central Airlines, a subsidiary of Wisconsin Central RR. 

Not true. The Wiscconsin Central Railroad was in receivership during the 1940's and was in no position to start an airline. Wisconsin Central Airlines was founded by two executives from the FWD Company, a manufacturer of heavy-duty 4x4 trucks based in Clintonville, WI plus another executive of an Engineering company based in Green Bay, WI. The Airline was founded in 1944 in response to the C&NW eliminating all passenger service to Clintonville and the lack of good roads to the community.  They bought two used Lockheed Electra 10A airplanes to start with.

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Posted by beaulieu on Friday, October 13, 2017 12:37 AM

BLS53

Richard Branson, Virgin Group, has just invested in the project:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/12/richard-bransons-virgin-group-invests-in-hyperloop-one.html

Virgin's primary business today is in the airline industry. 

Virgin Group's is no longer a major investor in the airline industry. It only owns a 20% stake in Virgin Atlantic Airlines. It actually owns 51% of Virgin Rail Group the operator of the West Coast passenger franchise in Great Britain. They are now a diversified holding company with interests in primarily Hospitality and Travel industries.

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Posted by beaulieu on Friday, October 13, 2017 12:45 AM

Gramp
Musk’s goal is to create a machine that can tunnel through the earth as fast as a snail, 10 times faster than current technology. 

 
To do that you also have to remove the excavated material ten times faster and also bring in the lining material and install it ten times faster.
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Posted by Miningman on Friday, October 13, 2017 12:53 AM

True that. You must have ground support, ventilation bringing fresh air  in and removing the old air, and you need to muck out each round. Conveyor belts do not work well in hard rock at all. This is not like cutting cheese.  

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, October 13, 2017 1:35 PM

Gramp

Of course it can be done!  Lots of things can be done.  Some have economic merit.  Some don't.  

There are lots of details to work out with Hyperloop before it's a practical transport system.

That aside, the big problem with economic viability will be throughput.  How fast can the terminals load, unload and turn equipment?  You have to have a lot of riders per hour to pay for infrastructure, equipment and operating costs.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Saturday, October 14, 2017 3:43 PM

Miningman
True that. You must have ground support, ventilation bringing fresh air  in and removing the old air, and you need to muck out each round. Conveyor belts do not work well in hard rock at all. This is not like cutting cheese.

And 2 tunnels will be needed - 1 for each direction - unless reliable technology for switching* and passing is developed, and a lot of passing 'sidings' are installed.

*See any monorail or 'AirTram' operation to see how complicated and cumbersome they can get.

- PDN.

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Posted by erikem on Saturday, October 14, 2017 4:11 PM

I'd wager that three tunnels would be the minimum as the traffic densities needed to support a Hyper loop would be such to preclude switching and passing if one tunnel had to be taken out of service.

The tunnels would likely be larger than what Musk was projecting for the Hyperloop to accomodate cars larger than he projected. The cars are small enough to trigger claustrophobia in some people and I haven't heard about any provision for a toilet. The latter would be needed unless there were robust provisions for getting all passengers out within an hour or so after a system breakdown.

I would also expect that passenger screening would need to be as least as tight on the Hyperloop as it is for airline passengers.

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Posted by BLS53 on Saturday, October 14, 2017 5:40 PM

beaulieu

 

 
BLS53

Richard Branson, Virgin Group, has just invested in the project:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/12/richard-bransons-virgin-group-invests-in-hyperloop-one.html

Virgin's primary business today is in the airline industry. 

 

 

Virgin Group's is no longer a major investor in the airline industry. It only owns a 20% stake in Virgin Atlantic Airlines. It actually owns 51% of Virgin Rail Group the operator of the West Coast passenger franchise in Great Britain. They are now a diversified holding company with interests in primarily Hospitality and Travel industries.

 

I'm stating Richard Branson is forward thinking when it comes to the evolution and integration of a transportation ecosystem. How that particions out among his other interest is irrelevant. In fact such diversity, further illustrates his acumen in this regard.

Other transportation entities have tried such integration, but didn't have the stones to go hardcore, and instead dabbled in rent-a-cars (United), and of all things, soda pop (IC). 

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Posted by side on Saturday, October 14, 2017 5:57 PM
Musk is a genius. I think he can do it!
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Posted by BLS53 on Saturday, October 14, 2017 6:00 PM

WM7471

 

 
BLS53

Arguably, one of the railroad industry's biggest mistakes was not investing in aviation in the 1920's and 30's.

 

 

IIRC several of the larger railroads (the Santa Fe & the Pennsylvania come to mind.) started to invest in the fledgling airlines in the years before WWII.  They were stopped by Congress over fears that they would buy up the airlines and then shut them down to prevent competition.

 

Railroads came into the act, when the then already established airlines wanted transcontinental routes, but the technology didn't exist yet (couldn't fly reliably enough at night and in weather). That's when some short lived partnerships came about. Once the DC-3 was introduced, and instrument flying procedures were developed, the partnerships disolved.

The time to act was the late 1920's when the government awarded the   original air mail contracts. It would've been a minimal investment for the major railroads of the era. The upstart companies that came about, evolved into the airline system we have today.

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Posted by BLS53 on Saturday, October 14, 2017 10:22 PM

mudchicken

Thank you - Beat me to it.

Santa Fe Skyways - 7/1/46 thru late 1947 with a fleet of DC-4's  and DC-3s

Image result for Santa Fe Railroad airlineRelated image

PRR ATSF and Transcontinental Air Transport (laterTWA) were networking as far back as 1929...C&EI started air transport between Chicago and points south.

 

 

 

By the time the Santa Fe operation came about, the airlines were well established enough to have an effective lobby group. The government snuffed it out after a little over a year. There's also some indication that the railroad unions frowned upon the idea, and exerted pressure as well. History is sketchy on this venture. A Google search yields very little. 

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Posted by 54light15 on Monday, October 16, 2017 3:09 PM

Hyperloop, eh? It might be do-able if there's enough sucker I mean taxpayer money behind it. But I did see a plan for a bridge across the Atlantic ocean once, complete with motels and gas stations. Oh wait, that was a Superman comic book. A few years later I saw a plan for a monorail throught the center of the Earth. Nope, that was a satire of Popular Mechanics in the old National Lampoon magazine. And then there was the atomic-powered zeppelin in an old Mechanix Illustrated magazine. All seem about as feasible as the hyper loop. What nonsense! 

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, October 16, 2017 4:28 PM

54light15
And then there was the atomic-powered zeppelin in an old Mechanix Illustrated magazine.

There was an atomic engine (locomotive), too.  Wait - that was a movie.  But I do know where the actual locomotive is...  It was an ALCO, of course.

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