CHICAGO — UPS has thrown its support behind a plan to build a new railroad that bypasses Chicago in an effort to decongest America’s railroad capital. In April, the shipping company filed comments with the Surface Transportation Board say...
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/05/30-chicago-bypass-ups-support
Brian Schmidt, Editor, Classic Trains magazine
UPS words may be meaningful - UPS money would be more so.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Hey RR XYZ operate my UPS trains over this route. Woud XYZ even ask How soon, how fast ?
And how soon will FED EX say same thing ?
Then how soon other shippers ?
Class 1s may have to fight it out with shippers at the STB ?
UPS has the clout. They can tell UP, NS an the other railroads that if you do not use the new railroad you will NEVER get any of our business. UPS pays premium money to ship goods on the railroads.
How much UPS and FedEx business goes through Chicago vs how much of their business terminates and/or originates in the Chicago area?
My gut feeling, based on no statistics at all, 75% of the business that goes to Chicago terminates or originates in the Chicago area. Of the 25% that goes through, does it all go to a single Distribution Center or does it go to multiple Distribution Centers scattered all over the appropriate portion of the country.
While Chicago is a 'choke point' it is a choke point because the 'through' traffic goes to so many different points on either side of Chicago that there isn't sufficient volume to or from any of the points to warrant a dedicated train between the points.
BaltACD UPS words may be meaningful - UPS money would be more so.
A shipper's true clout lies in his ability to choose the route his shipment takes. Alas, since the "Chicago bypass" is still a promoter's dream, not reality, UPS's words ring hollow and mean little. Moreover, even if construction begins, it is likely to face years of legal challenges before the first bulldozer get turned loose. Plus, the railroads which access the Chicago Switching District (with the possible exception of CN, which now possesses its own Chicagoland bypass in the EJ&E) are most unlikely to want to allocate ANY proportion of their linehaul revenue to this newcomer, which would have to occur when and if the new property begins operation -- in their shoes, I sure wouldn't -- and so they can be counted on to vigorously solicit traffic via their own lines, versus the upstart new toute. Finally, as the Chicago C.R.E.A.T.E projects get slowly knocked off, the financial justifcation for this Outermost Loop becomes more and more tenuous -- or get kicked decades into the future. All of which renders the project, for the moment, as a load of hot air.
My two bits.
Let's not overlook the huge distribution building UPS has at Willow Springs where their local just picked up packages are sorted for destinations and those arriving at the adjacent BNSF yard are sorted for local delivery. This is an amazing operation that coordinates with BNSF for all rail shipments to and from Chicago.
diningcar Let's not overlook the huge distribution building UPS has at Willow Springs where their local just picked up packages are sorted for destinations and those arriving at the adjacent BNSF yard are sorted for local delivery. This is an amazing operation that coordinates with BNSF for all rail shipments to and from Chicago.
blue streak 1 Hey RR XYZ operate my UPS trains over this route. Woud XYZ even ask How soon, how fast ? And how soon will FED EX say same thing ? Then how soon other shippers ? Class 1s may have to fight it out with shippers at the STB ?
I dunno. I think I'd be all for someone else building a railroad and paying for it if it benefitted me. The article notes that UP and NS aren't interested. They'd prefer to use their own, existing infrastructure. Since this hasn’t been built and financing hasn’t been found, it’s safe to assume that whoever uses the line will be paying for the line one way or another. UPS may be in favor of it but may change the tune if the cost to run over the lines is higher than the alternative.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Will it "Play in Peoria?"
The majority of the major players can get there. They have for decades. They used to play there, a little. Nobody wants to seriously play in Peoria. Some may leave with a few less marbles than playing Chicago.
If the big players don't wanna play, this Chicago bypass will play as well as Peoria.
billio BaltACD UPS words may be meaningful - UPS money would be more so. . . . Finally, as the Chicago C.R.E.A.T.E projects get slowly knocked off, the financial justifcation for this Outermost Loop becomes more and more tenuous -- or get kicked decades into the future. . . .
. . . Finally, as the Chicago C.R.E.A.T.E projects get slowly knocked off, the financial justifcation for this Outermost Loop becomes more and more tenuous -- or get kicked decades into the future. . . .
I wonder what the cost of the remaining CREATE projects are, compared to the cost of this outer belt ? And the comparative benefits ? And the likely dates of completion ?
- PDN.
Paul_D_North_Jr billio BaltACD UPS words may be meaningful - UPS money would be more so. . . . Finally, as the Chicago C.R.E.A.T.E projects get slowly knocked off, the financial justifcation for this Outermost Loop becomes more and more tenuous -- or get kicked decades into the future. . . . "+1" to BaltACD's comment. I wonder what the cost of the remaining CREATE projects are, compared to the cost of this outer belt ? And the comparative benefits ? And the likely dates of completion ? - PDN.
"+1" to BaltACD's comment.
Excellent question and one for which, I believe, there's no easy answer. Couple of theoghts, though. First, CREATE is a program that consists of a number of discrete construction and upgrading projects: additional main track, grade separations (both rail and highway), connections between rail lines where none exist, etc. Also, keep in mind that Metra and Amtrak are equal stakeholders in completing a number of projects because they will derive some measure of value from them. This means that for each project that they benefit from will require some capital from them, because the freight railroads are not in the business of subsidizing commuter or intercity passenger service. Squeezing capital out of them is much more difficult than having, say, two or three freight railroads sitting down and agreeing, "We'll split the cost of this project 50-50 (or 33-33-33, or whatever they agree to)," and the project gets done. Amtrak's share must come from the feds, Metra's from the feds, the state of Illinios and localities where the project is situated (City of Chicago, burbs, Cook County, whomever [Ed note: if I am a bit off base here, someone in the know correct me]). It takes a good deal more lead time to line up public financing.
Second, there is an order in which some projects must be attacked, a point made in a series of YouTube videos (See, for example, "Englewood Flyover, CREATE Project P1," and "75th Street Corridor, Create Projects P2 and P3"), which shows that the Englewood Flyover had to be completed before the 75th Street Corridor could eve begin to be attacked.
Having said all this, I'm guessing that CREATE is about half dome. Some, though by no mean all, severe bottlenecks have been eliminated. A key one is the aforementioned Englewood Flyover at 63rd Street, where the former Rock Island now Metra sails above the former Conrail lines into 41st (I think) Street. A great help. The nub of what remains is to be done, I believe, is a cluster of projects that include P2 and P3 plus EW2 and GS 19 which together will untie a veritable Gordian Knot of Metra and Amtrak traffic, NS, CSX, BRC, and even motorists. Collectively know as the 75th Street Corridor Improvement Project, these separate elements are all under environmental review, a mandatory preliminary step before the dirt starts flying. (Sorry, I haven't the energy to describe them more fuly here).
To be sure, there are a number of additional projects in the CREATE basket that are yet to be addressed, but, except for highway grade separations, most of them appear at the least to be in the environmental review stage, which is a far cry from nobody yet lifting a finger (Please see www.createprogram.org then click on "CREATE Projects" thence "Project Status."). I read somewhere that this or next year (I forget which), UP and Metra will commence three-tracking the remaining two-track segments of the West Line between Elburn and Western Avenue. There are others, but I believe these are the biggies. Probably worth mentioning is that the selection of projects that get included in the final CREATE basket almost certainly involves some of lesser importance but get thrown in to assuage lesser stakeholders. This also means that when CREATE is 100 percent completed, there will remain a number of other capacity projects plus (especially) highway grade separations* that would be extremely desirable but which will probably go ignored.
*I'm thinking especially of major thououghfares that cross the BN Eola Line and uP West Line at grade. It would be of enormous benefit to separate these, and many others, from the most heavily travelled rail lines.
Having thrown out this hot air, my personal guess for the completion of the 75th Street Corridor Improvement Project lies at minimum 7-8 years down the road, and could take a bit longer. Figure in IDOT's environmental analyses, arranging project financing, getting all the parties mobilized, the construction itself, all of it taking place on right of way that is intensively used, which only promises to stretch out the timeline.
BaltACD says: "While Chicago is a 'choke point' it is a choke point because the 'through' traffic goes to so many different points on either side of Chicago that there isn't sufficient volume to or from any of the points to warrant a dedicated train between the points."
This is the issue in a nutshell. A railroad around Chicago doesn't address the problem.
The bypass of Chicago was rejected by the STB for being incomplete. The 10 investers were not named, which is required. The route was also not correct, again. STB gave them till June 9 to correct the application.
Billio, Your posted link http://www.createprogram.org/ had a Hidden comma sneek in between the .org and the / resulting in "server not found error".http://www.createprogram.org,/ is how it copies. http://www.createprogram.org/ works.
Would this new line essentially be a new railroad or would they be selling/leasing trackage rights on it? I have seen a few items I bought through Ebay or Amazon get stuck in the Chicago area for a day or two as I followed the tracking information. I hope if this line is built that they buy plenty of ROW so adding more tracks in the future isn't a big legal headache.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
I see no reason to be excited that UPS wrote a letter to the STB supporting this project. Who would not be supportive of applehood and mother pie?
As to the proponents' business plan, I expect them to offer use of the railroad on a "toll road" basis. That is, the user would pay $X per car mile and per locomoive mile. No need for revenue division and provides maximum flexibility for users. This is higher risk for the project than if the Class I carriers took an equity position in the route, but why buy the cow if the milk is cheap.
If it were my project I would plan a massive container swaping yard somewhere in the middle of the route. The economics of that would have to be much better than rubber tire interchange. Think a Clearing Yard for containers.
The line is a high risk proposition. The Class I carriers have expressed no interest, and as Balt points out, to use it means that through traffic has to be separated from Chicago traffic somewhere on the originating carrier. Also remember that the existing system was paid for years ago. The new guys have to recover modern capital costs in competition with a paid for network. To the extent that traffic is diverted, those costs can only come out of the Class I's collective hide. Small wonder that big roads are not excited about this.
Mac
What would the new line do that the old EJ&E wasn't capable of in the past? If it's a good idea now, cut a deal with CN. Write some checks and put down a new parallel track(s) for the expected business, as was done at several points in CA.
It's not like the railroads aren't willing to spend a billion or so on track were business justifies it.
Rate divisions were probably the main reason that EJ&E never carried much overhead traffic since it was located outside the Chicago Switching District. The line existed, it just wasn't used that much.
CSSHEGEWISCH Rate divisions were probably the main reason that EJ&E never carried much overhead traffic since it was located outside the Chicago Switching District. The line existed, it just wasn't used that much.
Logical surmise, but not quite accurate. Without getting into divisions, which are both arcane and NOT in the public domain (although the big shippers somehow seemed to know them anyway!), I can assure you, as a one time J employee, that there was much more than that. In particular, the costs of providing overhead traffic were not compensatory, and so J management did the logical thing: it went out and de-marketed, de-solicited, overhead traffic.
[quote user="Boyd"]
As I understand from watching their video presentation a couple years ago, they are building a grade seperated high volume by-pass railroad. They will own the track and sell time on it. Didn't appear that they were doing the hauling.
There were other Chicago bypasses in the past that withered or died as RRs consolidated. If the Class Is were allowed to merge into true transcontinentals, this congestion problem would go away.
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