TRENTON, N.J. — A bill that would require railroads to share information about crude-by-rail shipments in New Jersey is headed to the desk of Gov. Chris Christie, North Jersey.com reports. The proposed bill, which has been stalled in the legis...
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/27-new-jersey-bill-would-disclose-oil-train-information
Brian Schmidt, Editor, Classic Trains magazine
This has the potential to be a major security lapse unless said information is restricted to first responders on a need-to-know basis only.
Brian Schmidt TRENTON, N.J. — A bill that would require railroads to share information about crude-by-rail shipments in New Jersey is headed to the desk of Gov. Chris Christie, North Jersey.com reports. The proposed bill, which has been stalled in the legis... http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/27-new-jersey-bill-would-disclose-oil-train-information
Unfortunately, They are not. IMHO. The part about informing First Responder organizations seems to be a good sense idea, but such information should be shielded from access by the General Public, unless there is "an incident". And then Public Safety becomes an issue. Then the 'Need to Know' is critical to the safety of the population.
Not knowing the full wording and meaning of the N.J. Bill could be problematic, but then we are forced to trust the judgement of elected officials.
Ultimately, the safety and security of the population of New Jersey is the issue. A couple of questions come to mind.
1.) How many trains per year transit the railroads in New Jersey?
2.) Is there not an apparatus already in place to notify first responders of the risks of hazards at a specific location?
3.) Is this new regulation/law(?) simply an overlayment of existing practices, and therefor just another 'tool' to insure a re-election bid by some politician? Which begs the question about enforcing current rules and regulations, and not adding to the body of legislation?
Perhaps the proponents of this legislation believe the residents of New Jersey are not smart enough to recognize a unit train of crude oil when they see one? Or is it that they can't discover what the HazMat code 1267 signifies?
I'd guess that New Jersey produces and ships many carloads of methyl-ethyl-deadly every day, but it's easier to try to get the public worked up about crude oil.
Don't the Federal Regs already require railroads to file this information with the state?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Sharing this information with first responders makes perfect sense to me. That way if something does happen they're off to a running start.. i.e. they already know how many cars on the train and what other commodities are on the train that might complicate matters. Would be a good idea to extend that requirement to other modes as well.
Dakguy201Or is it that they can't discover what the HazMat code 1267 signifies?
There's a copy of the "Orange Book" (Emergency Response Guide) in virtually every fire truck in the nation, and you can download it on your smart phone...
Based on this 2015 article, there are basically two parts to the law.
One would require the railroads to provide info on how they'd deal with a hazmat incident (not restricted to oil, from what's in the article) - to include who will do the work, availability of necessary equipment, and being able to financially cover the costs.
The other would require making information available about the where and when of hazmat trains.
Most folks aren't going to have a problem with the first, which would be required within six months, and then every five years thereafter. I would opine that the response portions could be pulled off a shelf at a moment's notice. One commenter on the linked article noted that the railroads are required by law to be self insured. I can't speak to the veracity of that.
As noted, the second requirement has significant security implications. Of course, simply sitting trackside for a couple of days will provide the same information.
Recommended equipment for potential first responders to hazmat incidents includes not only the Orange Book, but a pair of binoculars, since sometimes the best approach to a hazmat incident is to apply the "rule of thumb." If you thumb covers your view of the incident, you're far enough away...
As noted, there's a lot more hazmat on the rails than crude oil - much of it far more dangerous, for that matter (look up Graniteville). IMHO, attacking crude specifically smells of those who consider any usage of oil a bad thing.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68One commenter on the linked article noted that the railroads are required by law to be self insured.
Lot of good that did Lac Megatanic. The carrier went bankrupt. 45 People died. 30 buildings destroyed. And that was a small town. If it happened in downtown Utica, or as it was passing the Lake Shore Limited in Utica, well....CSX would not have enough to cover the costs. But I live with risk every day just as you do. Firefighting has many risks and I am thankful that firefighters are there for us and hope they are mindful of your "Rule of Thumb" More people die on the highway but consider that an acceptable risk. I would hope that those who wish to bring harm to the country don't use the information about hazemat shipments to plan their bad deeds which is one concern but back before 9/11, who would have thought that planes woud be used to destroy the WTC. Motivated individuals can make some terrible choices and unfathonable plans. But restricting information is not the best way to prevent their deeds. Unfortunatly, they will find other ways to obtain it and supprise us. As has been noted, they can observe trains and determine their patterns.
UlrichThat way if something does happen they're off to a running start.. i.e. they already know how many cars on the train and what other commodities are on the train that might complicate matters.
According to the news report, that isn't information the railroad is required to provide. According to the news report the railroad is required to provide routing and have an emergency plan for each community. The emergency plan is probably more a document on who has jurisdiction in each area, where the responders come from, how the railroad will respond and how the communications lines are set up.
The article didn't seem to indicate that the local communities would be notifiied on specific trains, how many cars, what the commodity was on a real time basis. The first responders I have talked to don't really want that information because 99.999% of the time it is not needed. They don't want to deal with keeping track of it. They want to know where they get the information when something happens. How does the railroad quickly communicate the information as soon as they know about an incident?
dehusmanHow does the railroad quickly communicate the information as soon as they know about an incident?
I'm sure Balt can address that.
I would suspect that most railroads have a pretty good idea who to call. PSAPs (public safety answering points) have regular seven digit phone numbers in addition to 9-1-1.
A lot will depend on where the incident occurs. In a built-up area you'll likely get calls from the citizenry direct to 9-1-1 before word comes from the railroad.
With regard to notification, if there's a lot of trains it becomes just so much noise for whoever receives the notifications. And if an incident does occur, they've got to figure out which fax/email applies. It would be far better to be notified only when necessary.
Too, every hazmat car is placarded - with a unit train you just have to find a car with the placard intact and you know. With a manifest freight, we're taught to get the manifest from the locomotive.
tree68tree68 wrote the following post 2 hours ago: dehusmanHow does the railroad quickly communicate the information as soon as they know about an incident? I'm sure Balt can address that.
That was a rhetorical question. I know the answer, I helped set up processes for some areas.
The problem is that there are dozens of overlapping responsibility areas for the civilian authorities, the fire department districts may not be the same as the police districts, the ambulance districts may not be the same as the fire districts, they may want to organize the civilian response through the county or through the fire dept. or through the police or through a special emergency manangement agency. The railroad needs to know that.
The civilian authorities need to know who to contact on the railroad. In most cases the initial response is coordinated therough an emergency response center. They typically have communications capability with all the various parties, plus have the ability to record and document all the contacts.
dehusmanThe civilian authorities need to know who to contact on the railroad. In most cases the initial response is coordinated therough an emergency response center. They typically have communications capability with all the various parties, plus have the ability to record and document all the contacts.
In many areas, PSAPs are now regional, instead of covering one small municipality. Around here, the PSAPs cover an entire county, usually including any cities. Emergency planning is generally done on a county-wide basis, as well.
The days of the local "fire phone" are pretty well past.
What might be lacking is exact points of change - ie, north of MP 123.4 is Podunk, south of 123.4 is Podunk Hollow. However, since the public will be working with crossings, not MPs, that's not really significant. Dispatches are already made based on road locations.
Besides, if it's a major incident, it'll be a "y'all come" type of thing anyhow...
I'm pretty sure most of the PSAPs have the appropriate railroad numbers on speed dial.
Our county is pretty much covered by Central Dispatch but there are still two or three towns that have their own. Fifedoms die hard.
When the blue signs appeared at crossings the RR cop shop seemed confused. The old signs gave people more information that could be useful for the RR cops to dispatch someone to repair a malfunctioning signal. I carry a list of the crossings with mileposts and street names in the area I frequent, to give to them It makes their job easier.
Norm
tree68 dehusman How does the railroad quickly communicate the information as soon as they know about an incident? I'm sure Balt can address that. I would suspect that most railroads have a pretty good idea who to call. PSAPs (public safety answering points) have regular seven digit phone numbers in addition to 9-1-1. A lot will depend on where the incident occurs. In a built-up area you'll likely get calls from the citizenry direct to 9-1-1 before word comes from the railroad. With regard to notification, if there's a lot of trains it becomes just so much noise for whoever receives the notifications. And if an incident does occur, they've got to figure out which fax/email applies. It would be far better to be notified only when necessary. Too, every hazmat car is placarded - with a unit train you just have to find a car with the placard intact and you know. With a manifest freight, we're taught to get the manifest from the locomotive.
dehusman How does the railroad quickly communicate the information as soon as they know about an incident?
Having called in several issues I've personally observed (as a civillian) to both the PD and the RR - I'd call the RR first. They are more actionable more quickly and to the correct location with the right people. They have then let the PD/FD know as needed. Since I'm familiar with my area I've let them know the MP, Sub, Train ID/engine # and car #. The PD wouldn't know who or where thus delaying response time and manpower.
Dan
CNW 6000The PD wouldn't know who or where thus delaying response time and manpower.
A call to 9-1-1 will get you a local response faster than having the call go through, say Jax, then bounce back up to the local jurisdiction. In most places, police and fire are dispatched from the same room.
But - it depends on the problem. If there's a car stuck on a crossing, the railroad is the place to call. If there's a pile of railroad cars burning, your knowledge that it's off the Podunk Hollow Road is going to do a lot more for local emergency response than a milepost.
Unless the locomotive was involved in the derailment, odds are the dispatcher will know about it before you can call.
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