Paul_D_North_Jr It'd be interesting to try to improve the muskeg subgrade to support heavier loads - if a guess-timated couple hundred megabucks (US or Cdn, not much different for this purpose) can be found and applied to such a project. One easy & economical step would be injection of cement to form an almost-solid block underneath. That would spread the load (surcharge, for those who know what that term means), and both the sinking down and squishing back up alongside the track (non-technical term - probably everyone knows what that means) - kind of like what happpens when you step into soft mud. Another would be to "sled and undercut" the track, install a heavy plastic geotextile fabric, and then palce and tamp a thick layer (12") of good ballast. Yet another would be to remove sections of the track, excavate about 3' below the top of rail, and install about 12" of dense subballast and 6" of ballast, install new track panels, then add the rest of the ballast and tamp it. There may be other methods, too . . . - PDN.
It'd be interesting to try to improve the muskeg subgrade to support heavier loads - if a guess-timated couple hundred megabucks (US or Cdn, not much different for this purpose) can be found and applied to such a project.
- PDN.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding Paul_D_North_Jr It'd be interesting to try to improve the muskeg subgrade to support heavier loads - if a guess-timated couple hundred megabucks (US or Cdn, not much different for this purpose) can be found and applied to such a project. One easy & economical step would be injection of cement to form an almost-solid block underneath. That would spread the load (surcharge, for those who know what that term means), and both the sinking down and squishing back up alongside the track (non-technical term - probably everyone knows what that means) - kind of like what happpens when you step into soft mud. Another would be to "sled and undercut" the track, install a heavy plastic geotextile fabric, and then palce and tamp a thick layer (12") of good ballast. Yet another would be to remove sections of the track, excavate about 3' below the top of rail, and install about 12" of dense subballast and 6" of ballast, install new track panels, then add the rest of the ballast and tamp it. There may be other methods, too . . . - PDN. It might be simpler and cheaper just to lay down a bed of gold coins under the rails. When I was young, we lived outside of Anchorage Alaska. the gravel road through our neighborhood developed big, sloppy sinkholes in the spring that swallowed cars. Twice a year, the folks in charge of the roads would dump a couple dump truck loads of cantaloupe sized rocks in the sinkhole and regrade the top. The problem never went away, as the sinkhole had no apparent bottom.
It might be simpler and cheaper just to lay down a bed of gold coins under the rails. When I was young, we lived outside of Anchorage Alaska. the gravel road through our neighborhood developed big, sloppy sinkholes in the spring that swallowed cars. Twice a year, the folks in charge of the roads would dump a couple dump truck loads of cantaloupe sized rocks in the sinkhole and regrade the top. The problem never went away, as the sinkhole had no apparent bottom.
Watching 'History Channel' about the building of the Al-Can Highway during WW II. Biggest problem was keeping the permafrost and muskeg frozen. Another show highlighed building a bridge in Alaska - it was constructed so that the bridge piers were air conditioned by the normal circulation of air through 'ballast' that were the approaches to the bridge. Building servicable transportation in such conditions is difficult and unique to the area.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Paul_D_North_Jr It'd be interesting to try to improve the muskeg subgrade to support heavier loads - if a guess-timated couple hundred megabucks (US or Cdn, not much different for this purpose) can be found and applied to such a project. One easy & economical step would be injection of cement to form an almost-solid block underneath. That would spread the load (surcharge, for those who know what that term means), and both the sinking down and squishing back up alongside the track (non-technical term - probably everyone knows what that means) - kind of like what happpens when you step into soft mud. Another would be to "sled and undercut" the track, install a heavy plastic geotextile fabric, and then palce and tamp a thick layer (12") of good ballast. Yet another would be to remove sections of the track, excavate about 3' below the top of rail, and install about 12" of dense subballast and 6" of ballast, install new track panels, then add the rest of the ballast and tamp it. There may be other methods, too . . .
Before CN was privatized they rebuilt a test section of track with a refrigeration system to keep the muskeg/permafrost frozen year-round, similar to what some segments of the Trans-Alaska pipeline and the (later) Qinghai-Tibet railway use. The technology seems to have worked quite well in those applications.
But I don't believe CN ever expanded its use past that test section, and Omnitrax seems to have abandoned the test section and the idea altogether.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Murphy Siding What is the outbound traffic on this line? What was the line built for?
What is the outbound traffic on this line? What was the line built for?
In a word, GRAIN. The prairie farmers of the 1920s wanted a port all their own, so as to not be beholden to those Eastern bastards who ran Port Arthur/Thunder Bay and all the other Great Lakes' ports (back then all the grain went east to the seaboard and Europe, not west to Asia).
Well thanks Paul D North Jr...the railroad goes 1000+miles, 1700km's through no where. It is outcrop, swamp, a universe of lakes, ...the logistics and cost are enormous. Sure yes, fix the bad spots, but the bad spots are darn near the whole thing.
As bad as that sounds, it's been there since 1929 and service was better "in the day". It does not fit the model of a lean mean money making machine...it is a vital and necessary service, even a very important strategic one. The Port shipping season is very limited.
In this day and age of "sustainabilty" you would be lucky to call it even on the dollars each year.
I think proper marketing of the passenger service could be a real boon especially if they sell it as an authentic experience and not some high faulatin (sp?) thing. Just leave it real.
I think Native Bands First Nation ownership is a doable solution.
Great pics Wanswheel. Quite a contrast from the harsh winter to the summer shipping season.
We shall see what the future brings.
Do they have polar bear rides like they used to have at the Toronto zoo?
[quote user="csxns"]
Miningman improve roadbed and support under these adverse conditions.
How do paved highways hold up to conditions like this?
Generally they don't, roads on permafrost have the same problems.
Thank You.
NDG- Disagree with the notion of lifting the rails. We need a deep water port in the Arctic and an alternative to Eastern Ports, even the Western ones. If not for anything but strategic purposes and maintaining sovereignty in the Arctic. The Russians are always lurking, you know claiming their continental shelf extends to Calgary! With your logic, which is the current way of thinking amoung most politicians and business folks, every town in the North should be shuttered across the entire land because there is no way to sustain without taxpayer $'s.
My enormous taxes indirectly pay for the TTC subway in Toronto and it's huge 500 million dollar defIcit. I do not have a hope in hades of riding the TTC from Northern Saskatchewan.
There are numerous settlements en route of that 1700km's, almost 100% Native Bands. They are totally dependant on the train.
What role did the Port/ Railroad play in WWII? Significant? Not sure.
For a nation this is peanuts...besides we are Canadians dammit and we want our cold nasty North...besides what would we do with all of our $1,000 Canada Goose Parka's.
Of course I hear everyone and their dog (or cat) in Toronto has one as well, status symbol y'know, although not needed, perhaps 3 days a year to cover a short distance from the car to a door. Probably the same thing in Vancouver except no days a year.
Ulrich is right...a good case can be made for government ownership. I favour the Native folk getting it. Either way is fine with me.
Only alternative viable option is Zeppelins, which they are quite serious about for hauling freight in the far North.
Check out the pik of the sign I posted in String Lining where the Bank of Montreal "Spans the World". What is that all about?
Excerpt from A History of the Bank of Montreal Volume 2
https://www.bmo.com/ci/files/A_History_of_the_Bank_of_Montreal_Volume_1.pdf
https://www.bmo.com/ci/files/A_History_of_the_Bank_of_Montreal_Volume_2.pdf
From the earliest days, of course, travel had been an important function of Bank of Montreal executives, at first mainly to London, Boston and New York to strengthen the Bank's connections. In Peter McGill's day, after a permanent foothold had been won in all parts of the Province of Canada, visits to the western branches were added to the itinerary. The appointment of an inspector of branches made the presidency somewhat more sedentary but only for a little more than a decade. The rapid foreign expansion that took place after 1860 forced E. H. King to become a constant traveller and a few years later George Stephen seemed to be continually on the move between Montreal and Ottawa, Chicago and New York, London and the Continent. Vancouver was brought into the orbit when Donald Smith, then the Bank's vice-president, rode the first C.P.R. through passenger train from Montreal to Port Moody. It remained for Edward Beatty, elected president of the Canadian Pacific Railway in 1918 and a director of the Bank of Montreal the following year, to make an annual ritual of such trips. He invited the Bank's president and other giants of finance, industry and business to accompany him in his private car on inspection tours that covered the main line of the C.P.R. and some of its important and interesting branches. After 1927 it fell to Meredith 's successor to join this annual western expedition, which involved regal journeyings of upwards of seven thousand miles.
When Sir Charles Gordon delivered his first presidential address in December, 1928, however, the shareholders learned that the railway tour had encompassed but a third of his mighty peregrinations. In addition to calling on the more important Canadian branches, he had visited those in London and Paris and the seven Mexican branches of the Bank as well. In all, nearly twenty thousand miles of travel by rail and steamship had been accomplished. "This," said Sir Charles, "gave me an opportunity of meeting many of our most important managers and others, and it gives me great pleasure to inform the shareholders that the Bank of Montreal has a high type of men representing it.''
Dreams are lovely. Even better when they come true.There is no cheap easy answer much of the time.
Definitely good public transit is IMPERATIVE, regardless of the cost.Thank You.
Wanswheel- Got to love the phrasing "mighty peregrinations" and "a high type of men". Thank you for the article. How on earth do you find this stuff? Genius!
NDG- regarding public transportation. We are close in age. I no longer drive, although I can and could..it's a decision I made a few years ago...reducing stress! Specialist Doctors, eye's and dentists are 3.5 hours away. We just lost our only one bus a day in and out. Everyone generally helps everyone else out when need be and something can be arranged but it takes some planning ahead of time.
That is likely not doable in a large urban setting. However, I believe public transit fares should reflect more to the actual cost of the operation. In other words ticket prices should go up substantially to cover the cost. 2 bucks for a system ride with free transfers is a joke.
Most people still use their auto's ...seems they pay through the nose for diminishing roads yet more required.
We should never have lost our interurbans and city center to center tracks in the first place. Of course there are like 2 people in North America that agree with me.
MiningmanWe should never have lost our interurbans and city center to center tracks in the first place. Of course there are like 2 people in North America that agree with me.
So many downtowns are dying that service to the center of many cities is service to nowhere. Downtown buildings with retail below and apartments above are not as plentiful as they used to be.
In downtown Watertown, NY, there used to be all manner of retail around Public Square, including groceries, to serve the many residents of the center city.
Add to that the loss of local "hub and spoke" service and the spread to the suburbs, and getting from one city to another gets to be a challenge.
But, it is a shame we lost those resources. That people are now recognizing that is evidenced by the resurgence of at least limited systems in many cities. We'll never see the old days again, transit-wise, but they are coming back.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Tree68- Yes at least it's something. Things could change yet.
We in North America, as a society, chose not to go that way. Good arguments can be made that interurbans and street car systems were doomed economically, or that there were conspiracies undermining the whole system. Fact remains we had a good thing that could have been updated and modernized all along ( yes yes I know, where does the money come from). It was doable. That is not what happened here in North America.
NDG- scary...Many find themselves with a house worth a million dollars and the Bank and other lenders shovelling large amounts of cash at them with equity lines of credit. Yet they remain cash income strapped with falling incomes, even unemployment, grown up kids living in the basement. Ability to service Credit Cards, LOC's and all their toys, boats, snowmobiles, quads, vacation property, is at the limit even with low low interest rates...BUT...if interest rates go up it's everyone running to the hills with cans of beans and shotguns.
Why is China so interested in demanding and insisting on a base station in our Arctic?
I can see us partying away like a bunch of fools, all lovey dovey, dumb as a sack of hammers, oblivious to reality, then the Chinese come "over the top" through the Arctic across the whole north and fanning out then take the whole dang country in about a week and half. They have even bought up most of Toronto and Vancouver housing so it's sort of a welcoming thing, here's a place to live!
What could the Dept. of D- Fence do? We even sold our Algoma rails to the Americans...to delineate the 49th?....maybe so the Chinese know where to stop? Wave hello to the new neighbour's America, from the Algoma fence.
For our American friends the Financial Post is Canada's Wall Street Journal. It's the only credible rag left out there in Canada. Even it's parent The National Post, once quite a great newspaper, has gone loopy.
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